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Main Date: 03 Sep 2006 06:07:51 From: onemarathon Subject: re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 my week: su-dnr m-tempo run :45 tu-dnr w-long run 1:15 th-dnr f-skipped scheduled run to go cycling, since weather was to turn nasty on Sat/Sun sa-tempo run :50 in the rain, as forecast predicted. su-might head out to a public pool for a swim, no run GOALS: not so good habits are developing. after a summer of quality training and better than average eating habits, everything has fallen apart now. ever since my last goal race (triathlon in early Aug.), i just haven't been able to get a handle on leaving the junk food alone. i have good days, which might go for 3-4 at a stretch, then it's back into the chips, pop, and baked goodies. crap! i never weigh myself, but i can tell that i'm gaining a bit around the waist. i want to be lean and light for a fall 10k. so.... goal number one is to whip myself back into shape, perhaps not where i was pre-triathlon, since i was doing longer workouts 6 days/wk back then, but if i can just get close, i'd be happier. must somehow stop with the bad food thing. help? goal number two... increase number of workouts per week. not necessarily in running alone. history has proven that i can keep in good racing shape on three run days/week, as long as i do some other cardio work, like a swim per week, and a bike per week. five days of workouts would be optimum. goal number three: do a race! i plan to do an . 29th 10K, and i want to improve on last year's time in the same event. quite do-able considering i was in even worse shape then, post injury and hadn't achieved the high level of fitness i did this summer (lost a little of that now). and i'll do a Sept. 17th warm-up (the Terry Fox Run) as a time trial. c'est tout, Cam   Date: 03 Sep 2006 17:04:09 From: Craig Pennington Subject: Re: re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Goals: 5k next saturday, looking for sub 25. I suspect this depends on Temperature. 10 miler in ober. Marathon in March. 27/8/2006 kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 2591/21/54/25 28/8/2006 DNR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 2623/19/48/32 29/8/2006 8.0m 1:17:41 79%MHR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 3272/16/51/33 30/8/2006 6m as 3m 28:32 70%MHR, weights, 3m 29:21 78%MHR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 3829/23/48/29 31/8/2006 8.0m 1:22:59 71%MHR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 4295/32/44/24 1/9/2006 11.5m 1:54:53 74%MHR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 3275/20/46/28 (12oz wine, diff is alcohol calories) 2/9/2006 DNR kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 2399/28/44/28 3/9/2006 16.5m 2:39:21 76%MHR Week: 50.0m 8:12:47, 22282/23/48/28 mean weight this week: 190lbs Notes: Since the wife has to keep a food log, I started doing so as well. Since I run in the AM without eating, I included the prior week's last day and omitted the last day of this week. This calorie intake represents about a 4,000kcal+/- weekly deficit from my estimated steady-weight diet. This is typical; since my BMI is still 24.4 and I expect there are more gains to be had from losing weight. This week will be a fairly light running week in prep for Saturday's 5k. I also will not eat in deficit. Cheers, Craig -- Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.   Date: 03 Sep 2006 16:23:23 From: Parker Race Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 goals: get back to running more miles, last two weeks have been successful with this get race times back to where they in the Spring - this remains to be seen SEFCU Labor Day 5k tommorow I have no idea of how this is going to go, I would like to run under 20:50 but we'll see. HMRRC - Anniversary run 5.6 mile race on 9/10 - usual plan is to run 2 hours easy before the race and then run projected MP for the race. Longer term I am considering the Vermont 50 (k) on Sept 24th, (this is looking to be less likely as I haven't done the elevation work) or a road Marathon in ober or November Su: 14.5 road and beaches M: 8.5 easy w 10 strides T: 9.5 w 10 X 3:00 W: 7 road and beaches 10 strides Th: 12 - 7 am w 3 X 10 @ 1/2 M pace, some into a 15-20 mph wind pm 5 easy F: 0 Sa: 16.5 roads Totals: 67 (all distances except Saturday are estimates) "onemarathon" <cam_wilson@sympatico.ca > wrote in message news:1157288871.806065.175790@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com... > my week: > > su-dnr > m-tempo run :45 > tu-dnr > w-long run 1:15 > th-dnr > f-skipped scheduled run to go cycling, since weather was to turn nasty > on Sat/Sun > sa-tempo run :50 in the rain, as forecast predicted. > su-might head out to a public pool for a swim, no run > > GOALS: > not so good habits are developing. after a summer of quality training > and better than average eating habits, everything has fallen apart now. > ever since my last goal race (triathlon in early Aug.), i just haven't > been able to get a handle on leaving the junk food alone. i have good > days, which might go for 3-4 at a stretch, then it's back into the > chips, pop, and baked goodies. crap! i never weigh myself, but i can > tell that i'm gaining a bit around the waist. i want to be lean and > light for a fall 10k. > > so.... goal number one is to whip myself back into shape, perhaps not > where i was pre-triathlon, since i was doing longer workouts 6 days/wk > back then, but if i can just get close, i'd be happier. must somehow > stop with the bad food thing. help? > > goal number two... increase number of workouts per week. not > necessarily in running alone. history has proven that i can keep in > good racing shape on three run days/week, as long as i do some other > cardio work, like a swim per week, and a bike per week. five days of > workouts would be optimum. > > goal number three: do a race! i plan to do an . 29th 10K, and i want > to improve on last year's time in the same event. quite do-able > considering i was in even worse shape then, post injury and hadn't > achieved the high level of fitness i did this summer (lost a little of > that now). and i'll do a Sept. 17th warm-up (the Terry Fox Run) as a > time trial. > > c'est tout, > > Cam >   Date: 03 Sep 2006 08:04:56 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 onemarathon wrote: > i have good days, which might go for 3-4 at a stretch, then > it's back into the chips, pop, and baked goodies. crap! > [...] > must somehow stop with the bad food thing. help? Cam, I'm not really the expert with breaking a junk food addiction, but having struggled with a nicotine addiction and lived with someone with food issues, here's a few simple ideas. [a] Don't beat yourself up too much: it's counterproductive. (Though I remain, unlike some folks, convinced there's a place for *some* self-flagellation...) [b] Focus more on where/what you'd rather be (in this case, a leaner, healthier eating, and more dedicated athlete) and how rewarding that'll be, not so much on the prohibition thing. [c] If you need to stop eating the chips and cookies, and drinking pop - don't have them in the house, period. Not any. Get your caffeine from morning coffee or tea or whatever, but otherwise drink water. Seltzer (club soda) if you need bubbles. If you're drinking caffeinated soda all hours of the day and night, that's wreaking its own brand of havoc too. [d] For some people what seems to work is to schedule, like weekly or a few times monthly, indulgences e.g. a small bag of chips the first and third Fridays of each month. Or since re-carbing is legit for an endurance athlete, have that eclair right after your long run (and *only* then). Having the door cracked open just a wee bit may be less panic-inducing than an all-out ban. But for me and I think many, having the door cracked would be too tempting an invitation to throw it wide open and rekindle the addiction. If you go the "limited indulgences" route rather than the "strictly verboten", consider making the indulgence extra high quality, really special, maybe something you have to work for a little. Get the eclair from that great bakery on the other side of town, or better yet bake yourself a blueberry crisp or make your own ice cream the night before. [e] You may need to modify some other behaviors, throw some other things overboard, where those things are triggers for your addictions. i.e. if you always drink two liters of soda and eat a bag of chips while watching the weekly football game on TV, you might need to give up watching the football for a while, or go see it at a sports bar instead of your living room sofa which is the usual scene of the crime. I realize addictions are tricky, but Cam I'm telling you, there's a lot more pleasurable ways to get your calories than from junk. The trailhead for one interesting and enriching path starts with a great cookbook or two. Take it from a guy who in prior decades practically lived on fast food and soda: cultivate a taste for the better stuff, for real food, and soon enough you may be a little disgusted by all that swill you used to scarf. Good luck.   Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:52:54 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "onemarathon" <cam_wilson@sympatico.ca > wrote: >c'est tout, Cam, have you had any news from David (SwStudio)?   Date: 03 Sep 2006 19:54:06 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 joe positive wrote: > Truly the worst week all year. I'm so sorry to hear that. Better now than end of the month though. > when I run, I run very slowly Whaddya talking about, "very slowly"? Won't dispute any of the subjective stuff but since you post actual numbers, the objective story doesn't look like "very slowly" at all. Here's the paces I see in your other training weeks - arbitrarily taking the first one of each month: 4 Jun: 8:23, 9:11, 9:23, 9:21, 8:33, 8:24, "amazingly slow", 9:13, 8:59 2 Jul: 8:59, 9:47, 9:02, 9:35, 9:57, 9:29, 9:09, 9:12 6 Aug: 8:49, 8:50, 8:45, 9:59, 9:43, 8:46 3 Sep: 8:20, 8:51, 8:57, 8:42, 8:56, race Looks to me like you're running _faster_ - nothing over 9:00 all week - despite the sore legs, the weather, the dehydration, the half zillion miles in yr legs over the last N months, and the bad attitude (which may or may not have cast a pall over some of these runs and not just yr post). I dunno, if you do that with those odds stacked against you, maybe that training stuff you've been doing has been working. :-) > pulled a pendejo And we all know, that can be a serious distraction at any time, let alone midrace! Hey, you have my sincerest sympathy on the shitty (or nearly so...) race. That bites. But once you get your mind and body right, AFAICT you're gonna be in terrific shape for when it counts.   Date: 03 Sep 2006 18:53:03 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 76.30 unseasonably cool miles, as Mo PM: 6.50 easy Tu AM: 4.15 easy with 9x20" strides PM: 6.50 easy We AM: 4.15 easy PM: 9.80 with 3:30 hill repeats Th AM: 4.15 recovery PM: 4.15 easy Fr AM: 4.15 easy PM: 11.45 including 8.45 @ MP-10" to MP+15" (after dark in the rain in the nearly empty park, I could neither see my stopwatch most of the time, nor maintain normal focus on pace apparently) Sa AM: 8.25 extra easy Su AM: 13.05 easy Shortest "long" run in quite a while today - babying very mildly sore hip/glute a little (it seems to have appreciated the combo of some ice, massage, lower miles, and ice bath). If feeling good I may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in three weeks, to get a few standard marathon long runs in. upcoming -------- - 5 miler in Brooklyn 17 September - pair of ober half marathons - NYCM 5 Nov     Date: 04 Sep 2006 05:02:57 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1157334783.851769.190470@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > 76.30 unseasonably cool miles, as Cool and rainy, I might add. All in all, nice running weather, crummy biking weather. > Mo PM: 6.50 easy > > Tu AM: 4.15 easy with 9x20" strides > PM: 6.50 easy > > We AM: 4.15 easy > PM: 9.80 with 3:30 hill repeats > > Th AM: 4.15 recovery Ok, after reading Karen's post, I'm glad to see someone posting recovery runs. I won't even ask about pace because on these runs pace is best ignored except to GO SLOW. I don't even wear my HRM on recovery days often. > PM: 4.15 easy > > Fr AM: 4.15 easy > PM: 11.45 including 8.45 @ MP-10" to MP+15" (after dark in the > rain in the nearly empty park, I could neither see my > stopwatch most of the time, nor maintain normal focus > on pace apparently) > > Sa AM: 8.25 extra easy Another, notably after a key workout the previous day. > Su AM: 13.05 easy > > Shortest "long" run in quite a while today - babying very mildly > sore hip/glute a little (it seems to have appreciated the combo of > some ice, massage, lower miles, and ice bath). If feeling good I > may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in three weeks, to get a few > standard marathon long runs in. Ok here's a question for you - do you see these longer efforts interfering with your ober HMs? I'd also be intersted if you're following a schedule or are rolling your own. 9/10 19 9/17 21 9/24 10/ 1 10/8 10/15 10/22 10/29 11/5 NYCM Just curious, where will your long runs fit? I lay out my long run schedule 10 weeks out from a race (or more). -Tony > upcoming > -------- > - 5 miler in Brooklyn 17 September > - pair of ober half marathons > - NYCM 5 Nov >       Date: 04 Sep 2006 09:00:04 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Tony S." <email_tonys@yahoo.com > wrote: >I don't even wear my HRM on recovery days often. I've found this is one of the most important times to wear it (that and when doing pace tests near a goal race). This week, for example, I forced myself to do the "v easy" runs at 70% HRmax and found I had to slow to below 6:04/k (9:40/mi) to do it. Without HRM I'd have been at nearer 75% because running at my "intuitive" base pace, in the 5'25-5'35/k (8'45-9'/mi) range.         Date: 04 Sep 2006 14:42:51 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "steve common" <stevenZ.common@wanadoo.fr > wrote in message news:qvinf2hhnutng1qnr3obnm20sqrdh7v1ov@4ax.com... > "Tony S." <email_tonys@yahoo.com> wrote: > > >I don't even wear my HRM on recovery days often. > > I've found this is one of the most important times to wear it (that and > when doing pace tests near a goal race). This week, for example, I forced > myself to do the "v easy" runs at 70% HRmax and found I had to slow to > below 6:04/k (9:40/mi) to do it. Without HRM I'd have been at nearer 75% > because running at my "intuitive" base pace, in the 5'25-5'35/k > (8'45-9'/mi) range. It can be an important time, I agree, since I see the main benefit to wearing one is either to moderate your runs or keep the pace up when doing effort days. For me, some recovery days I know will be slow from how I feel, so I just go out and really crawl them (jog at 60-70%max, like 10-11mpm, even as slow as 12mpm). Mainly I wear it to log cumulative patterns in my running, and to keep from rising into the so-called junk zone when doing 'normal' runs, which for me are in the range of 72-76% max. -Tony     Date: 04 Sep 2006 03:59:25 From: Dan Stumpus Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote > Shortest "long" run in quite a while today - babying very mildly > sore hip/glute a little (it seems to have appreciated the combo of > some ice, massage, lower miles, and ice bath). Yeah, but that short long run had 8.75 miles of hot sauce in it, making it more than the equivalent of an easy 20, in my book... > If feeling good I > may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in three weeks, to get a few > standard marathon long runs in. Advise against making them too challenging, just train for time and endurance. Your other key runs will balance out your training, in my humble, non professional coaching opinion. > - 5 miler in Brooklyn 17 September Cool. > - pair of ober half marathons ?? I hope you aren't racing the second one.... > - NYCM 5 Nov Go for it, baby...how many minutes you going to give me for a friendly wager? I'm doing one in ober.       Date: 09 Sep 2006 17:36:48 From: Tom B. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Doug Freese wrote: > "Tom B." <tom.banchy@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1157731737.368275.248030@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > > lanceandrew@aol.com wrote: > > I've never had much interest in running MCM -- I think the organizers > > are inept, and the course can't support a race that big. > > Did in once in 87 and found the course boring although organized ok. It > was 10,000 at that time and yes, cramped. Well, I don't want to totally trash a race that I have not personally run in (although I have gone to watch it a few times). But a few things I read on marathonguide, and heard from friends: - the same course (more or less) that was cramped with 10,000 now has 30,000 - sufficiently crowded for the entire field to come to a stop at the first water station - 2 hour line for packet pickup, outside in the hot sun, waiting to get through ONE single metal detector and door into the Armory (I think this was 2 years ago) No thanks. There are plenty of better choices.   Date: 03 Sep 2006 17:31:10 From: Beginning runner Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 My goal for the week was to run three 4-minute splits with 3-minute walks in between. I almost made that by the end of the week; I was short 20 seconds on the 4th split on the last day of the week. My goal for the week ending September 10th is to finish the 9/3/06 goal and to extend the 2nd and 4th splits by 30 seconds each, increasing the walk after the second split also by 30 seconds. After achieving that goal, I'll continue to add 30 seconds to the 2nd and 4th splits until I'm able to do five minutes on each of them. After that, I'll decrease all the walks until they're half the run time preceding them. When that is accomplished, I'll be finished with week 4 of the couch to 5K program, and will start working on week 5.   Date: 04 Sep 2006 00:55:58 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Goals : - be able to run comfortably for 2h - run 6 full training sessions per week, or more - maybe do local HM in two weeks, in which case ~1:28 target otherwise another 10k or a 5k if I can find one. That was the seventh week of training after my 10-week sprained ankle rest period. Sunday's race went better than expected, particularly as it got a lot warmer (30° at end, 28° start) than the UK hols had got me used to :oP The race was 1k from my house and I had announced a sub 40' goal some time ago, but had backed off a bit on that and had mentally accepted 40'30 as more reasonable - despite Wednesday's 5x1000 at 10k effort being in line with a possible sub-40 - cos I hadn't lost any more weight and it was going to be around 5°C warmer. I went out slower than I could have but still a bit too fast (3'51/k) and so I got another slightly, but still feelthy steenking, positive split. The ankle still isn't right, and burns and gets a bit seized up after the cooldown, but it isn't getting worse so I shall plug on at it ... Anyway, to cap all that, I actually won something in the prize draw after the race! 100€ voucher to be used on a pair of Mizunos :-) Time km mi avHR% Mon 0:48 8 5 70 V easy on roads, chatting (5'50/k 9'23/mi) 26°C Tue 1:26 16 10 76 Riverside trails, nice run (5'27/k 8'46/mi) 24°C Wed 1:12 14 9 79 30' up, 10' down, light wind 25°C 5x1000/380 in 4'02-3'51/2'20 + 200m in 41" at end Thu 0:00 Planned rest Fri 0:44 7 5 70 V easy, roads round home (6'04/k 9'46/mi) 27°C Sat 0:47 8 5 70 V easy + 5x200/100 10k pace in 45"/45" 28°C Sun 1:23 18 11 83 33' up, drills, lines, 11' down. 29°C 10k in 39'30 gun time, 61st/~1300 17th/?? 40-49yo (winning time 31:30-ish) _________________ 6:21 72km 45mi   Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:27:24 From: Brian Baresch Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Goal: NYCM M: 6 easy T: 14.2, two loops of hilly route W: DNR T: 4.2 easy F: 5 easy w/6x100m strides S: DNR S: 15.5 w/12 @ ~MP Total 44.9 miles. -- Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill     Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:26:30 From: Dan Stumpus Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Recover from 50k last Saturday, possibly gear up for 10/9 marathon (Biz Johnson). M: 6.5 mile hike, quads quite sore. T: 6.5 miles, could run uphill and had *tons* of energy. Very strange so soon after a race. W: 7 miles, could run ups and downs, but downs gingerly. T: 7.5 miles, easy. F: 7.5 miles, very easy. S: 13 miles, 2200' climb, equaled PR on this course without trying. S: 15 miles, 3500' climb, walked a lot of the steep ups, ran strong back, felt great. Total: 63 miles. Felt very good on today's easy 15 miler. I'll get back into the swing of my pre-race system this week, but notch down the speed 5%, then I'll resume the hard work into my next race. Hope to lose another 5 lbs, if I can stay disciplined. -- Dan   Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:44:04 From: marko Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Hi everyone, I'm back to running and to r.r.! This summer I took some real vacations, and almost didn't run, (see below). I also ate a lot and without the running, I got back to the weight I had prior to starting running, which is about 9kg above the 79kg I weighed for my last april marathon PR. In the last 3 weeks I managed to get back easily to running and after many runs in the :-( range, I moved up towards :-     Date: 04 Sep 2006 18:45:00 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 marko <personne@nullepart.eu > wrote: >Hi everyone, I'm back to running and to r.r.! Welcome back, Monsieur. >This summer I took some real vacations, and almost didn't run, (see >below). I also ate a lot and without the running, I got back to the >weight I had prior to starting running, which is about 9kg above the >79kg I weighed for my last april marathon PR. Argggggggggggh! And here we all are whingeing about a couple of extra pounds/kilos. I think "WTF" fits well here :oP "Ate a lot" he says. Where did you go on holiday to manage 9kg? Tell me you won a "sejour de 15j" in a sugar factory, or some "SuperSize McFoieGras with eggs and bacon at every meal" competition? And did you really weigh 79kg in April?! I missed that bit - makes your sub 3 all the more impressive if it isn't a typo. >In the last 3 weeks I managed to get back easily to running and after >many runs in the :-( range, I moved up towards :-       Date: 04 Sep 2006 21:10:31 From: marko Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 steve common a écrit : > "Ate a lot" he says. Where did you go on holiday to manage 9kg? Tell me > you won a "sejour de 15j" in a sugar factory, or some "SuperSize > McFoieGras with eggs and bacon at every meal" competition? actually, I first gained 4kg in the 2 months after the marathon when I ate more and ran less (lost of pastries and charchuterie but 85kg is ok with me, it's the upper limit), but then during vacations, I really ate *and* drank like a pig, without any running, hence the other 5 kg! > > And did you really weigh 79kg in April?! I missed that bit - makes your > sub 3 all the more impressive if it isn't a typo. My mean weight before the marathon was about 79kg, but on the D day, it was 81.3 after carbo loading! 80kg is my real performance weight but I'm 1m93 so... > >> In the last 3 weeks I managed to get back easily to running and after >> many runs in the :-( range, I moved up towards :-         Date: 05 Sep 2006 09:52:54 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 marko <personne@nullepart.eu > wrote: >80kg is my real performance weight but I'm 1m93 so... Wow! So you do altitude training every single day ;-)   Date: 03 Sep 2006 19:08:02 From: joe positive Subject: re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Since the original post did not ask me about my goals, I guess it's ok not to have any :-) Actually my goal is to try and remember why I'm doing any of this in the first place (listing of shit week follows). Upcoming races: 5K Sept 14; marathon (ha) Sept 30. Su: 16.52mi (8:20) in the hills. too fast too early, dehydrated, stopped this 18-miler a little early M: 6mi (8:51) T: 13mi (8:57) W: PM 11.2mi (8:42) overcast, breezy, good company, surely the high point of the week R: AM 6.8mi incl 12x100m strides. slow, sloggy, sore F: 4mi (8:56) Sa: 12.3mi incl attempted 15K. raceday stomach at 5 miles, had to bail, jogged it in total: 69.8 miles Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want to run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and feet. I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. In that fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, and 3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of public disgrace. To add insult to injury, this race was in a city about 80 miles from home (I'd gotten up at 3am to drive there, which partly accounted for my wack stomach), so after hanging around another couple hours so my friend could collect his age-group award, there was the drive back home to endure. Anyway, I hope this is as bad as it gets. good week all Karen     Date: 04 Sep 2006 04:27:37 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "joe positive" <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message news:1908731.T72JUgd51e@positive.com... > Since the original post did not ask me about my goals, I guess it's ok not > to have any :-) Actually my goal is to try and remember why I'm doing any > of this in the first place (listing of shit week follows). Upcoming races: > 5K Sept 14; marathon (ha) Sept 30. > > Su: 16.52mi (8:20) in the hills. too fast too early, dehydrated, stopped > this 18-miler a little early What the heck, I'll give my take on it also. Here, take a page ouf of Dan's book - slow it down to 9:30; and start slow like the kenyans. Running long ones faster won't give you anything unless it's part of plan, but since you have a race 6 days hence, that get's the effort, not this one. > M: 6mi (8:51) As a long time observer of training week, I know you can handle a lot. But I'd be fascinated at some biofeedback on your training paces (e.g. heart rate % of max). If you're always looking at *pace* alone as a measure, you're somewhat ignoring temperature, humidity, how your body *is*, and a whole host of other factors. Anyway, I would have bagged the monday run if you had those signs of not wanting to run that you describe below on this Sunday run. At the very least, why not do some of these short recovery runs ridiculously slow, like 10mpm! Since I train by heart rate and time, I know when my body just isn't responding right based on my heart rate response. Ironically, the more I'm rested the easier it goes up, and the more sluggish it is to rise, the more rest I require. If I'm due for a tempo day and my HR won't respond in a lively way, I know that I either need to postpone my tempo run, or do it more moderately or I'll be loading the system too much. > T: 13mi (8:57) Fine. > W: PM 11.2mi (8:42) overcast, breezy, good company, surely the high point of > the week Too fast perhaps; can't ignore the load that runs which rise into the junk training zone put on the system. Junk = fast enough to produce *cumulative* muscle fatigue, but not fast enough to push up the threshold at all, let alone VO2. > R: AM 6.8mi incl 12x100m strides. slow, sloggy, sore Body not responding - bag it and do a recovery run. I'm of the opinion that you should feel somewhat lively for your effort days, not necessarily fully rested, but not dragging ass either. Slower normal runs with true recovery runs after fast and long days would be helpful to give you the gas for your key workout days. > F: 4mi (8:56) Another candidate for a 10-11mpm jog. I see too much of the same kind of pace in your runs, the pace of which may or may not be inadvertently rising into the junk zone. Since you're breaking down I'd say they are. > Sa: 12.3mi incl attempted 15K. raceday stomach at 5 miles, had to bail, > jogged it in Save that effort you put in early in the run last Sunday for this race and for your key workout days. Since you've been logging mega miles all year, and you're legs are sluggish -- I'd say slow your recovery days to a crawl, moderate your normal run days by at least 30" per mile, and that should give you the gas for key workouts. Oh and run those long ones slower to isolate on those slow-twitch fibers fully once in a while (Hadd concept), or always. -Tony, having fun pretending he's a coach > total: 69.8 miles > > Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want to > run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and feet. > I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. In that > fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, and > 3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I > found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of public > disgrace. To add insult to injury, this race was in a city about 80 miles > from home (I'd gotten up at 3am to drive there, which partly accounted for > my wack stomach), so after hanging around another couple hours so my friend > could collect his age-group award, there was the drive back home to endure. > > Anyway, I hope this is as bad as it gets. > > good week all > > Karen     Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:17:53 From: Dan Stumpus Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "joe positive" <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com > wrote > Truly the worst week all year. I had an absolutely abysmal long run 3 weeks before my last very good race...took a day off, and it turned out ok. Just take a mini-break, real easy days, a day or two off, or some such... > The weather is miserable; When it was 95-100 for 4-5 weeks in LA a bit ago, I had just about had it. (95-100 is considered hot here :-) -- Dan     Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:49:17 From: Doug Freese Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "joe positive" <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com > wrote in message news:1908731.T72JUgd51e@positive.com... > Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want > to > run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and > feet. > I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. In > that > fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, > and > 3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I > found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of > public > disgrace. To add insult to injury, this race was in a city about 80 > miles > from home (I'd gotten up at 3am to drive there, which partly accounted > for > my wack stomach), so after hanging around another couple hours so my > friend > could collect his age-group award, there was the drive back home to > endure. > > Anyway, I hope this is as bad as it gets. How about some rest or is that still on your taboo list. You're getting close to imploding. Your feeling this shitty and you say you're using a coach? Is he named Kavorkian. -Doug     Date: 03 Sep 2006 15:26:02 From: Brian Baresch Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 >Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want to >run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and feet. >I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. In that >fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, and >3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I >found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of public >disgrace. Karen: I admire your perseverence, but ... I'm worried you're headed for some serious burnout, physically or mentally or both. Take a day or two off, eh? Good luck! -- Brian P. Baresch Fort Worth, Texas, USA Professional editing and proofreading If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill       Date: 03 Sep 2006 21:46:24 From: Donovan Rebbechi Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 On 2006-09-03, Brian Baresch <brian_news2@peacenik.removethisstuff.net > wrote: >>Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want to >>run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and feet. >>I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. In that >>fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, and >>3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I >>found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of public >>disgrace. > > Karen: I admire your perseverence, but ... I'm worried you're headed > for some serious burnout, physically or mentally or both. Take a day > or two off, eh? She's got the marathon coming up on Sep 30th, so presumably the taper for that starts soon. Sometimes if you know a break is not that far ahead, it doesn't hurt to slug it out for a bit. Cheers, -- Donovan Rebbechi http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/       Date: 04 Sep 2006 20:01:18 From: Doug Freese Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Brian Baresch" <brian_news2@peacenik.removethisstuff.net > wrote in message news:igemf2p00i7k7lkkdcmv53lvnns9ehtjjb@4ax.com... > Karen: I admire your perseverence, but ... I'm worried you're headed > for some serious burnout, physically or mentally or both. Take a day > or two off, eh? I thought I was the only one listening to the ticking bomb. -Doug     Date: 04 Sep 2006 18:45:00 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 joe positive <kcollin5@tampabay.rr.com > wrote: >Truly the worst week all year. The weather is miserable; I don't want to >run; when I run, I run very slowly on tired tight and sore legs and feet. >I had a light week and no workouts at all save the race Saturday. FWIW when I used to do a subjectively "harder" training schedule (tho less time/miles, paradoxically) the 3rd or 4th weeks before the goal race felt kinda like that, tho I never did run quite as hard as you in training. Seems like it may be a normal state of affairs when you've pushed training to the limits. Just don't get tempted to do "a bit more to make up for the bad week". But I reckon you know what your at :-) > In that >fiasco I was ok for 5 miles - albeit a little off pace, but not much, and >3rd or 4th female at the time - when my stomach pulled a pendejo and I >found myself unable to run any faster than 7min pace without fear of public >disgrace. So you pulled a pendejo but not a paula. That's going to have to be the next step up in your training intensity if you want to progress :oP       Date: 04 Sep 2006 19:59:54 From: Doug Freese Subject: Re: Bekele & Big Macs "Kaz Kylheku" <kkylheku@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1157322181.814926.223520@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com... > Here in North America, women, particularly the attractive ones that > everyone wants, generally like men who are tall, lean, > broad-shouldered > and powerfully built. A male built like these Kenyan runners looks > practically invisible to such women. > Success in endurance sport is not worth it, if it means repelling > attractive members of the opposite sex. Sounds like your primary motive to run is to get laid cuz you look good. I'm not against some old fashioned nookie but try some intellectual improvement and they may like you, regardless of you body construction and come back for a second shot. I guess if she doesn't have that "perfect" body your not going to give her a toss in the hay. I guess that will show them. -DF   Date: 03 Sep 2006 18:43:49 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 8/28 off 8/29 brick 1:36 70% (ran 1:11 72% bike 0:25 66%) 8/30 brick 1:30 71% (ran 0:51 76% bike 0:39 63%) with 0:19 fartlek 82-92% 8/31 brick 1:57 66% (ran 1:16 69% bike 0:41 60%) 9/01 off 9/02 ran 5:37 72%,6,000+' climb, 27.2 miles, jeep & singletrack trails, Time was 6 hrs+ with refill breaks etc., 7.2 was on rougher trail, 5 of it was hiking uphill ~2700'. 9/03 bike 0:45 very easy My legs were better in the latter part of yesterday's run, though I was tired during the whole thing due to some illness midweek (I think). Of all the really long training runs I've done in the past several years this one has been easiest on my body, but it should be enough for my last long run before the Vermont 50 miler. Next weekend, depending on how I feel, I'll do either 2.5-3 hours mostly flats, or 2 hrs Sat with some hills and 2 hrs flats Sun flats only; then it's 2 weeks of taper time with a little more fast running, a bunch of shorter runs, and one hilly 1:45ish run 9-10 days before Vermont. Oh yea, lucky for us, the Ernesto storm went west, and our run yesterday was mostly dry with some drizzle or light rain at times and about 58-60 degrees. -Tony Last 20 weeks long wk biked ran long climb runs comment 16 1:57 6:09 2:35 2,250 5 17 1:58 9:04 4:28 4,940 6 Catskills 18 3:41 3:59 1:21 1,580 5 19 1:44 7:42 2:39 2,280 6 20 1:59 7:32 2:38 3,200 6 21 3:04 7:39 2:29 2,540 6 22 2:17 7:45 3:38 5,480 5 Catskills, overlook 23 2:58 7:23 2:27 2,400 6 24 2:23 5:21 2:53 4,000 4 taper and race, Greylock 25 4:10 3:47 2:01 1,620 3 26 4:01 8:41 4:17 4,800 5 Catskills 27 3:54 6:27 1:31 1,200 6 28 3:56 6:29 2:39 3,440 5 Hills 29 4:32 4:37 1:29 1,600 5 taper 30 3:29 5:39 4:10 6,000 3 taper and race, Escarpment 31 3:37 2:16 0:54 3 recover 32 2:44 6:29 2:16 1,650 6 33 3:52 7:54 3:26 5,360 6 hill repeats, overlook 34 2:35 5:19 1:29 5 35 2:30 8:58 5:40 6,000 4 hill repeats + side trip     Date: 04 Sep 2006 19:42:34 From: Parker Race Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Tony S." <email_tonys@yahoo.com > wrote in message news:FnFKg.3636$ub5.2186@trnddc07... > 8/28 off > 8/29 brick 1:36 70% (ran 1:11 72% bike 0:25 66%) > 8/30 brick 1:30 71% (ran 0:51 76% bike 0:39 63%) > with 0:19 fartlek 82-92% > 8/31 brick 1:57 66% (ran 1:16 69% bike 0:41 60%) > 9/01 off > 9/02 ran 5:37 72%,6,000+' climb, 27.2 miles, jeep & singletrack trails, > Time was 6 hrs+ with refill breaks etc., 7.2 was on rougher trail, > 5 of it was hiking uphill ~2700'. > 9/03 bike 0:45 very easy Tony, a couple of questions. 1. Do you bike to get get more aerobic time in without the stress impact of running? 2. Have you found that biking impacts (negatively) your leg speed for running? I'm wondering as I was doing a lot of biking late last Summer and thought it was impacting my race times. So I haven't touched the bike in a couple of weeks and today I had another dismal performance (21:18) in a road 5k. My time was actually 10 seconds last year on the same course. I don't know, maybe it will just take a while for me to see the benefit of the 60+ miles a week.       Date: 04 Sep 2006 16:43:23 From: Lowtuc Zowtuc Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 week=3D65 per day =D7days of year =3D4.8 plus, days ride=3D10.4 minus, goal do 10 a day plus for rest of year for 7.7 a day=D7 365. if you work 65 miles a week suck. I not working past 4 years. 13.4 =D7365 last year, 7.4 year before, 2400 year before, 1800 year before. this year goal=3D 7.7 a day. running zero. doing a home made running machine some. bad running ;leg. lifting alot more then before. 145 reps of 10. and cable 80, mil press 65 to 85. slant press around 110. could do more sept got low in type bar holder behind neck. so got to tri below back of neck to get to level. could do more butt do not want to strain self or re injurious back. so working up to. A bench for seat on cables. so like push 2 benchs/ pull for 1 bench and seat. (lay on back alot). got a few other machines, not use much with bikeing too. kind of wore out. sleep in afternoon after eating most time. As Money and Taxes go=3Dmakeing less the the $25.00 or $27.75 a week for rest of year after talk to .(case worker for me.) for rest of year so under the taxs thing. food stamps.medie so if I get hit on road. year. fall weather here a little early so getting colder. no bugs so much. I don't think the u.s.a. wants me to work... so I don't......right I mean it is work.... funny labor day I not trolling and life is good. oh great the workers are back ad 10 zillion reasons again why every thing I never did they well say I am.and ride there zillion $ machine on my being...Beep bep beep varoom..did you know I am.beep beep.... and I am thi and I am that.......oh I did not pay, oh I owe....... Bite me , in the mud.       Date: 04 Sep 2006 20:30:17 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Parker Race" <prace@nycap.rr.com > wrote in message news:Kk%Kg.4734$xV.4209@twister.nyroc.rr.com... > > "Tony S." <email_tonys@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:FnFKg.3636$ub5.2186@trnddc07... > > 8/28 off > > 8/29 brick 1:36 70% (ran 1:11 72% bike 0:25 66%) > > 8/30 brick 1:30 71% (ran 0:51 76% bike 0:39 63%) > > with 0:19 fartlek 82-92% > > 8/31 brick 1:57 66% (ran 1:16 69% bike 0:41 60%) > > 9/01 off > > 9/02 ran 5:37 72%,6,000+' climb, 27.2 miles, jeep & singletrack trails, > > Time was 6 hrs+ with refill breaks etc., 7.2 was on rougher trail, > > 5 of it was hiking uphill ~2700'. > > 9/03 bike 0:45 very easy > > Tony, a couple of questions. > > 1. Do you bike to get get more aerobic time in without the stress impact of > running? Yes, I think it doesn't hurt getting in more aerobic time, and since I mostly bike to trailheads and back, it works out well. > 2. Have you found that biking impacts (negatively) your leg speed for > running? Yes, I think it can slow you down if you do long rides and/or too much biking, especially hills with lower cadence. If you do high cadence and less power on the bike, I don't think it will affect your running very much. Last year I did less running days/week, and only biked many days, up to 2 hours, but mostly rides in the 60-90 minute range. This year I've run mostly 5-6 times per week, and have done much shorter bike rides, but daily (commutes as I said above). I think the way I'm doing it this year is much better for my running, and it does give me a longer overall workout with less impact. > I'm wondering as I was doing a lot of biking late last Summer and thought it > was impacting my race times. > So I haven't touched the bike in a couple of weeks and today I had another > dismal performance (21:18) in a road 5k. My time was actually 10 seconds > last year on the same course. > > I don't know, maybe it will just take a while for me to see the benefit of > the 60+ miles a week. Don't know, but probably. I've done very few 60+ mpws, if any. Since I train by time I don't know, but I think I was peaking out at roughly 50mpw prior to escarpment, and now it's more like low 40s. With the races and long hilly workouts, I do less overall volume. You reminded me to get my biking volume back up a bit for the next 2 weeks, thanks. -Tony     Date: 05 Sep 2006 14:32:43 From: Teresa Bippert-Plymate Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Goals: Local Grand Prix, which has started up again. Next race now 1. Get back to speed work. I stopped when it just got so dang hot and humid! Mon: 3.52 mi @ 10:09 pace. ~98F. Easy run with no probs. Tue: 6.3 mi @ 8:29 pace. Cloudy, humid, mid-90's. had some times I felt like I was flying along this one trail, despite the heat. Wed: DNR Thur: 6.25 mi on treadmill (so I can watch finale of "Who wants to Be a Superhero!" Hehee.) Very humid today, absolutely soaked. 9:19 avg pace. Fri: DNR Sat: 12.04 mi @ 9:43 pace. Humid, overcast, low 80's. Some slight stomach upset first few miles. Other than that, OK. Sun: DNR Total for week: 28.16 mi Teresa in AZ   Date: 04 Sep 2006 08:43:54 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Tony wrote: > Splayed foot? Does that mean turned out, as in not lined up straight > when you walk and run? Do you have trouble turning your feet/foot in > when you're standing up (e.g. standing pigeon toed)? Turned out. But only during running so far as I'm aware. Feet seem to fall naturally into a pretty parallel alignment walking or standing. With a little effort I can stand pigeon toed by 80-90 degrees. Ozzie's written a little about splayed feet and recommendations (one thing was bodywork, e.g. Rolfing, which I may consider over the winter) but my ears are always open.     Date: 04 Sep 2006 16:45:27 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1157384634.521015.229960@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > Tony wrote: > > Splayed foot? Does that mean turned out, as in not lined up straight > > when you walk and run? Do you have trouble turning your feet/foot in > > when you're standing up (e.g. standing pigeon toed)? > > Turned out. But only during running so far as I'm aware. Feet seem to > fall naturally into a pretty parallel alignment walking or standing. > With a little effort I can stand pigeon toed by 80-90 degrees. > > Ozzie's written a little about splayed feet and recommendations (one > thing was bodywork, e.g. Rolfing, which I may consider over the winter) > but my ears are always open. I've had a right foot turnout for eons, and it used to seriously limit my running and caused the hip to degenerate. This year I've finally found an exercise that really helps release the muscles that are holding it that way. I'll email you the exercise. It takes 15 mins on each side, and is perfect for watching tv. YMMV obviously, and you've got to try different things. This is the first year since the mid 1990s that I haven't been limited by my hip when training; now it's other things ;) -Tony   Date: 04 Sep 2006 06:52:49 From: onemarathon Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 steve common wrote: > "onemarathon" <cam_wilson@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > >c'est tout, > > Cam, have you had any news from David (SwStudio)? ok NOW i see what you were getting at, Steve. i am sometimes up and about early early on Sundays and just want to get my post on the ng before i get into my day... which sometimes means jumping the gun on David's opening Training Week post. i did that yesterday, figuring he'd officially start things off a little later. but now i see that he never showed up. hmmm, i guess something came up. anyway, i'm glad i posted, since i seem to have gotten the ball rolling. hope things are cool with you, David.... you out there? Cam   Date: 04 Sep 2006 06:42:40 From: onemarathon Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Craig Pennington wrote: > Goals: 5k next saturday, looking for sub 25. I suspect this depends on > Temperature. 10 miler in ober. Marathon in March. sounds great, Craig. do you run better in warm or cool weather? will the March marathon be your first? > 27/8/2006 > kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 2591/21/54/25 man, all that number-watching would drive ME crazy. i wouldn't last a week or two doing that. > Since the wife has to keep a food log, I started doing so as well. Since not a bad idea. i should do the same since i'm trying to get a handle on my junk food addiction. but given the amount of food (good and bad) that i eat, my log would end up being a bloody novel in just a month! :) > This week will be a fairly light running week in prep for Saturday's 5k. best of luck on your taper week and in the race! Cam     Date: 04 Sep 2006 16:36:12 From: Craig Pennington Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 onemarathon <cam_wilson@sympatico.ca > wrote: > Craig Pennington wrote: >> Goals: 5k next saturday, looking for sub 25. I suspect this depends on >> Temperature. 10 miler in ober. Marathon in March. > sounds great, Craig. do you run better in warm or cool weather? will > the March marathon be your first? I am pretty heat sensitive, so I much prefer cool weather. I do my regular runs around 5am to avoid too much heat, but this summer (only my 2nd summer running) I added some afternoon runs to help acclimate to the heat and it doesn't bother me as much (going from 250 to 190lbs helps quite a bit on this front as well.) The National Marathon in March will be my 1st. Last year, on my 40th Birthday I decided to run a marathon, having never done any serious running before. After some reading, I targetted this years Marine Corps Marathon as reasonably far out; and since I live right in Arlington, I wouldn't have to drive. My current training level somewhat reflects this original goal, but it seems that there is no small likelyhood that I will be taking paternity leave around that time and thus be otherwise occupied, so I shifted the goal ahead half a year. More training time in any case. >> 27/8/2006 >> kcal/%fat/%carb/%pro: 2591/21/54/25 > man, all that number-watching would drive ME crazy. i wouldn't last a > week or two doing that. I did it once for one week (just calories & fat, though) when I got serious about dropping weight. Once you get a feel for your regular food, it's kind of intuitive. I figure a once a quarter, a week long reminder log is good for maintenance. Other than that, I think it's way overkill. But for my wife, it has become important, so I am keeping track as well for moral support. >> Since the wife has to keep a food log, I started doing so as well. Since > not a bad idea. i should do the same since i'm trying to get a handle > on my junk food addiction. but given the amount of food (good and bad) > that i eat, my log would end up being a bloody novel in just a month! > :) I was going to write a bit on your original question, but the wife is in full nesting mode, and I've been hanging shelves and finishing the basement floor and hanging more shelves and moving furniture and ... My main advice regarding the junk food is to not deny yourself in your diet. It's not like quiting smoking -- you needn't go cold turkey. In fact, if you plan on indulging on a regular basis, you won't crave*. I have untrimmed lamb (or some similar red meat) once a week. I go out to eat once a month (Mexican is a favorite.) If you can look forward to the treat, it can take a lot of the teeth out of the cravings. Also never let yourself get really hungry. Have some 'quick' food around. I like (hand mixed) trail mix for a quick 400kcal or an evening protein shake. This will keep you from gorging. Also, if you are craving something specific, your body may be trying to tell you something. Find out what it is and try to satisfy the need in as healthy a way as possible. *Ok, you won't crave as much. >> This week will be a fairly light running week in prep for Saturday's 5k. > best of luck on your taper week and in the race! Thanks, but it's more like Dot described -- a don't do anything foolish week. Not well enough planned to be a real taper week. Now, back to moving stuff around the attic. Cheers, Craig -- Corollary to Clarke's Third Law: Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.   Date: 04 Sep 2006 06:37:49 From: onemarathon Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 steve common wrote: > "onemarathon" <cam_wilson@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > >c'est tout, > > Cam, have you had any news from David (SwStudio)? no, i haven't, Steve. i only pop in here occasionally and don't think i've seen him posting. has he been active in the ng lately? or has he gone AWOL.... Cam   Date: 04 Sep 2006 06:35:36 From: onemarathon Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Charlie Pendejo wrote: > [b] Focus more on where/what you'd rather be (in this case, a leaner, > healthier eating, and more dedicated athlete) and how rewarding that'll > be, not so much on the prohibition thing. i guess with the end of race season nearing, my subconscious is telling me to forget about "serious" training, and that there's no point in eating properly. but I DO want to run a good 10K in .! must convince the subconscious..... > [c] If you need to stop eating the chips and cookies, and drinking pop > - don't have them in the house, period. Not any. that's the thing.... i've always understood and abided by those house rules and for the most part they have worked at keeping things in moderation. but there's a freaking convenience store right across the street from me.... Danger Will Robinson, Danger! and it's not like i'm a total junkie, swilling pop at all hours. it's more like this... i work in a store where baked goodies are free to staff, and since i seem able to eat continuously all day long... and often feel hungry in between healthy meals and snacks, i frequently grab the freebies. only for the one or two race taper weeks can i convince myself to hold back. i do drink loads of water, but i seem to crave the sugary things a lot. and at least once a week, i crave a big bag of chips. might not sound like a lot but do that every week, and you'll see a difference (maybe you did? :) > [d] For some people what seems to work is to schedule, like weekly or a > few times monthly, indulgences e.g. a small bag of chips the first and > third Fridays of each month. Or since re-carbing is legit for an > endurance athlete, have that eclair right after your long run (and > *only* then). i've done that in the past... sort of scheduled snack days or weeks, with a fair amount of success. and smaller portions. i keep telling myself i'll do that, but then i'll cave in when i'm at the store. i've always justified some of the snacking with my endurance training and racing. but if it interferes with my success and satisfaction with running, then it needs attention. > [e] You may need to modify some other behaviors, throw some other > things overboard, where those things are triggers for your addictions. > i.e. if you always drink two liters of soda and eat a bag of chips > while watching the weekly football game on TV, you might need to give > up watching the football for a while, or go see it at a sports bar > instead of your living room sofa which is the usual scene of the crime. jeez, now you've got me thinking..... i DO love watching movies, and watch 'em at least a few nights a week. with food. sometimes i'm aware enough to drink water and juice rather than pop, and eat popcorn and baked pretzels rather than chips. still, it's not too bad at home - it's mainly at work where the temptation is more real and the foods even worse. but maybe i could consider your tactic. > I realize addictions are tricky, but Cam I'm telling you, there's a lot > more pleasurable ways to get your calories than from junk. The > trailhead for one interesting and enriching path starts with a great > cookbook or two. yeah, i've been told that if i learned to cook more interesting things, i'd be happier with healthy food. i used to rustle up some cool things like stir fry's, Tex Mex, fish dishes, etc.... but once i got into longer distance running and triathlon, i found that workouts took up more time each day, and the last thing i wanted to do was spend the next hour (or half) preparing a meal. so i'd eat things that were functional, but not as fun. nutritional and good as fuel, but boring. and that has become a habit. so now when the munchies hit, i want the really tasty things. thanks for all the ideas, Charlie. methinks i should: #1. finally concentrate on cooking up some new and healthy menu items around here. it would be a good start. #2. eat healthier snacks and schedule the junk food snacks. i guess if i can put together months of training plans, i can do this. g'day, Cam   Date: 04 Sep 2006 08:18:52 From: Frank Boettcher Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 For the week: DNR Back went out last Sunday loading furniture for son's move in day at college. Goals: Get better. Frank     Date: 04 Sep 2006 09:47:42 From: Mark Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Last week was the first week of a 4 week tune up for my first 10K near the end of September. My original 12 week program got botched by over-training, too much too fast for my novice-ness, aggravating an old back injury and burning myself out. So 4 weeks, now three weeks, left till my first 10K. Did an easy 2 miles last Tuesday, tempo run on Thursday (1 mile easy, 3 miles tempo, 1 mile easy), missed a scheduled 2 mile easy run for Friday (pulled a near all nighter in Montreal the night before), and did a 7 mile easy run yesterday. That 7 miler is my longest single run to date, since my college days! Once my 10K race is complete, I'm planning some moderate training till about the end of November, then maintenance running till March-ish. Mark   Date: 04 Sep 2006 04:18:40 From: anders Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 > my week: MON 1:00 easy = trying to keep the HRM reading at or below 70% TUE 1:40 moderate = feel-based, sustained pace WED 1:40 short uphill sprints 16x 20s maximum attack, rec.2min + 10 min fast THU rest FRI 1:40 long road intervals 5x 7min at 90%HRmax, rec 5min >70% SAT 1:00 easy SUN 2:40 long duration run, faster than easy, slower than moderate (= junk?) Same as last week, with 4 more uphill sprints on Wed and 1min longer reps on Fri. A nice feeling of making some quick progress and of doing some really good training without breaking myself down. Long run less transcendental this week, but a nice run taking in signs of autumn: birds gathering in flocks, overripe apples laying in back gardens, joggers dressed more according to the calendar than the thermometer... Anders     Date: 04 Sep 2006 15:07:45 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "anders" <hop.allez@suomi24.fi > wrote in message news:1157368720.312599.181330@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > > > my week: > > MON 1:00 easy = trying to keep the HRM reading at or below 70% > TUE 1:40 moderate = feel-based, sustained pace > WED 1:40 short uphill sprints 16x 20s maximum attack, rec.2min + 10 > min fast > THU rest > FRI 1:40 long road intervals 5x 7min at 90%HRmax, rec 5min >70% > SAT 1:00 easy > SUN 2:40 long duration run, faster than easy, slower than moderate > (= junk?) One man's junk is another man's _____. I like your 5x7 @ 90, not too shabby. It would be too hard for me to do that many at that effort at this point, but you're base of +/- 10 hrs/week is more than mine. Also I've saved my effort for hills mostly. Just curious did you wear your HRM on Sunday's run, and what you consider moderate, etc. I just use mine as a biofeedback tool, and that means it will tell me different things on different days. Last year I did all my long runs really slow, aiming for low 70%s. This year when I've done hills, I decided I would run up pretty much all of them, even on long runs, whereas last year I would walk more to keep my HR lower. So when I found myself in what I'd call the junk zone on a hill this year, like 77-78% or something, I just pushed it up into the low to mid 80's to give some kind of LT benefit, then went easier for a little while to recover once I hit the flats. This made the overall HR for my long runs appear in the junk zone (like 77%), but that was easy most of the time with hill intervals wherever they fell in the run. -Tony > Same as last week, with 4 more uphill sprints on Wed and 1min longer > reps on Fri. A nice feeling of making some quick progress and of doing > some really good training without breaking myself down. > > Long run less transcendental this week, but a nice run taking in signs > of autumn: birds gathering in flocks, overripe apples laying in back > gardens, joggers dressed more according to the calendar than the > thermometer... > > > Anders >   Date: 03 Sep 2006 23:23:33 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Tony wrote: > Cool and rainy, I might add. All in all, nice running weather Yes, very! 66F and a misty rain - one version of perfect east coast running weather. >> I may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in three weeks > > Ok here's a question for you - do you see these longer efforts > interfering with your ober HMs? I'd also be intersted if you're > following a schedule or are rolling your own. Nah, I don't forsee a problem with the ober HMs. If it takes more than 48 hours to recover from a long run, that'd mean scrapping or reducing a midweek workout not screwing up next weekend's race. Schedule: I've taken the three key (my interp) points of the Hansons' marathon schedule (see http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/print.asp?id=4447): weekly MP runs of increasing distance, a second "speed" or "strength" workout each week, and "short" long runs. Then on the other 4 days I ignore their mileage and run however much easy/recovery I feel like. More volume than they call for, largely from morning runs 4 to 6 days a week. And generally at least 14-16 every Sunday, not alternating Sundays. A few times I've moved the MP mileage into the long run, to reduce # of workouts and get more recovery after midweek 5k races. And hill repeats instead of the last couple 5k pace "speed" workouts (enough of that stuff in early summer for 15k training already) and maybe the first "strength" one. That's the plan anyway. Here's how these proposed long runs and races fall: > 9/10 18-20 > 9/17 5 mile race, maybe 10-13 total, may jog home for cd > 9/24 20-22 > 10/1 1/2M at MP, minimal wu/cd > 10/8 see how I feel but probably <= 13 easy > 10/15 1/2M all out > 10/22 see how I feel > 10/29 10-12? > 11/5 NYCM To rest for the 15 race, the week prior will be easy, lower mileage. I'm thinking of this as the first week of a 4 week, two stage taper. A little lower (say 60-70 instead of 80ish) the week before and after that race, then a deeper 10-14 day taper. None of this is set in stone, but nor am I totally pulling it out of my ass on the spur of the moment. ;-) Thanks for prompting me to lay this out in more detail, Tony - I've had it in my head but getting it "on paper" is helpful. I should transplant this to a calendar and sprinkle in the other workouts too. And feedback as always welcome.     Date: 04 Sep 2006 18:45:01 From: steve common Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote: >> 10/15 1/2M all out >> 10/22 see how I feel >> 10/29 10-12? Notwithstanding the other stuff I posted about all-out efforts and such, if you're going to do a "best effort on the day", I'd invert the "10-12?" and "see how I feel" runs **IF** there is the slightest risk that your "see how I feel" may become a "more than 12mi/2h" (ballpark figures). Roughly translated into normal English - if you are on a high on 10/22, following 10/15 race+decent recovery week, don't bugger yourself up by doing an overly hard/long run too early. I'm sure you know all that anyway :-) >> 11/5 NYCM Wish I could be there.     Date: 04 Sep 2006 19:21:51 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1157351013.597596.58110@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com... > Tony wrote: > > Cool and rainy, I might add. All in all, nice running weather > > Yes, very! 66F and a misty rain - one version of perfect east coast > running weather. > > >> I may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in three weeks > > > > Ok here's a question for you - do you see these longer efforts > > interfering with your ober HMs? I'd also be intersted if you're > > following a schedule or are rolling your own. > > Nah, I don't forsee a problem with the ober HMs. If it takes more > than 48 hours to recover from a long run, that'd mean scrapping or > reducing a midweek workout not screwing up next weekend's race. > > Schedule: I've taken the three key (my interp) points of the Hansons' > marathon schedule (see > http://www.runningtimes.com/rt/articles/print.asp?id=4447): weekly MP > runs of increasing distance, a second "speed" or "strength" workout > each week, and "short" long runs. Then on the other 4 days I ignore > their mileage and run however much easy/recovery I feel like. More > volume than they call for, largely from morning runs 4 to 6 days a > week. And generally at least 14-16 every Sunday, not alternating > Sundays. Interesting philosophy (that I've seen debated both here and elsewhere before). I'm glad I read it before posting something like "why are you doing the long runs so far out from the race". > A few times I've moved the MP mileage into the long run, to reduce # of > workouts and get more recovery after midweek 5k races. And hill > repeats instead of the last couple 5k pace "speed" workouts (enough of > that stuff in early summer for 15k training already) and maybe the > first "strength" one. I've done a similar thing in my long runs by running the hills harder, but at Hadd/light tempo pace, not MP, since it can be up to 2 hours at that effort level. > That's the plan anyway. > > Here's how these proposed long runs and races fall: > > > 9/10 18-20 > > 9/17 5 mile race, maybe 10-13 total, may jog home for cd > > 9/24 20-22 > > 10/1 1/2M at MP, minimal wu/cd > > 10/8 see how I feel but probably <= 13 easy > > 10/15 1/2M all out > > 10/22 see how I feel > > 10/29 10-12? > > 11/5 NYCM Looks good after reading your link ;) > To rest for the 15 race, the week prior will be easy, lower > mileage. I'm thinking of this as the first week of a 4 week, two stage > taper. A little lower (say 60-70 instead of 80ish) the week before and > after that race, then a deeper 10-14 day taper. > > None of this is set in stone, but nor am I totally pulling it out of my > ass on the spur of the moment. ;-) > > Thanks for prompting me to lay this out in more detail, Tony - I've had > it in my head but getting it "on paper" is helpful. I should > transplant this to a calendar and sprinkle in the other workouts too. Thanks for sharing it. I've felt this year that the really long runs muck up my normal training week a great deal, and for that reason I've done fewer of them this year than last. OTOH, to get the deep strength I need for a hilly 50, and since I *can't* do the kind of hills and volume daily that Dan does - I still need to do some of them. I notice that with more base than last year my body absorbs them better also. I think that next year if the escarpment trail is again my main goal (between marathon and 50k running time), I will limit my long runs to mostly 2 hours, with just a few up to 3 hours; then do more volume and speed. -Tony > And feedback as always welcome.     Date: 05 Sep 2006 09:46:57 From: marko Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Charlie Pendejo a écrit : > Here's how these proposed long runs and races fall: > >> 9/10 18-20 >> 9/17 5 mile race, maybe 10-13 total, may jog home for cd >> 9/24 20-22 >> 10/1 1/2M at MP, minimal wu/cd >> 10/8 see how I feel but probably <= 13 easy >> 10/15 1/2M all out >> 10/22 see how I feel >> 10/29 10-12? >> 11/5 NYCM I know you've already discussed this in another thread, but I can't help and think that *if* the NYCM is _the_ goal, then it is foolish to run the 10/15 HM all out. I see 2 reasons for this : it makes you begin your taper too early, and then it asks you to recover from it when you should begin your taper. FWIW, I ran a HM 5 weeks before my M at a good pace (for a soft PR) but didn't run it all out. It just gives you confidence to feel that you can sustain a good pace without trying to push things too far, particularly since the main goal is a marathon. That makes it a wonderful LT session that won't leave you kaput and that will perrmit you to train till the end of your plan. If you'd ask me, I'd do my last long run (20m) on 10-15, and just be content with the 10/1 HM (at MP pace or HM) (this is just what I did to run my april M PR in very good shape, rested and ready) m       Date: 05 Sep 2006 17:43:16 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "marko" <personne@nullepart.eu > wrote in message news:44fd2b83$0$17147$626a54ce@news.free.fr... > Charlie Pendejo a écrit : > > Here's how these proposed long runs and races fall: > > > >> 9/10 18-20 > >> 9/17 5 mile race, maybe 10-13 total, may jog home for cd > >> 9/24 20-22 > >> 10/1 1/2M at MP, minimal wu/cd > >> 10/8 see how I feel but probably <= 13 easy > >> 10/15 1/2M all out > >> 10/22 see how I feel > >> 10/29 10-12? > >> 11/5 NYCM > > I know you've already discussed this in another thread, but I can't help > and think that *if* the NYCM is _the_ goal, then it is foolish to run > the 10/15 HM all out. I see 2 reasons for this : it makes you begin your > taper too early, and then it asks you to recover from it when you should > begin your taper. > FWIW, I ran a HM 5 weeks before my M at a good pace (for a soft PR) but > didn't run it all out. It just gives you confidence to feel that you can > sustain a good pace without trying to push things too far, particularly > since the main goal is a marathon. That makes it a wonderful LT session > that won't leave you kaput and that will perrmit you to train till the > end of your plan. > If you'd ask me, I'd do my last long run (20m) on 10-15, and just be > content with the 10/1 HM (at MP pace or HM) (this is just what I did to > run my april M PR in very good shape, rested and ready) > m Crikee!!! (in honor of Steve Irwin) The speculation regarding charlie's marathons... Hell, just go for it the way you want to! -Tony, who's considering a not-all-out 10 miler 2 weeks before his 50 miler...   Date: 03 Sep 2006 22:50:28 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Dan wrote: > Pendejo wrote >> Shortest "long" run in quite a while today - babying very mildly >> sore hip/glute a little (it seems to have appreciated the combo of >> some ice, massage, lower miles, and ice bath). > > Yeah, but that short long run had 8.75 miles of hot sauce in it, making > it more than the equivalent of an easy 20, in my book... In some ways though it's apples to asian pears. These weekly MP runs (6 building to 10, though I'll also do a 13) don't totally slay me but they're no joke either, especially since my "MP" may be more aggressive than prudent. But - I'm slowly getting a handle on this, I think my problem with the 20ish runs isn't systemic exhaustion or plain ol' legs taking a beating. It has to do with a biomechanical quirk on my right side - SI joint alignment? whacked piriformis? something there in the hip/glute/ham region anyway, and probably related to my splay footed gait - that causes me grief, and I think beyond a certain distance starts to inflict a lot more damage. Maybe that's because muscles get tired and form deteriorates (in which case maybe this year I'm better prepared for that). Still putting pieces of this puzzle together. Pretty sure it's this same biomechanical thing which dealt me the bit of soreness this week, and has been behind most of my injuries in the past. >> If feeling good I may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in >> three weeks, to get a few standard marathon long runs in. > > Advise against making them too challenging, just train for time and > endurance. Your other key runs will balance out your training, in > my humble, non professional coaching opinion. Thanks, I hope so. I'm treating long runs as time on feet (and burning fat, exercising the ticker at an easy aerobic rate, stimulating mitochondria, ...) The exception has been a few Wed evening 5k's where I've transplanted Fri's MP mileage into the Sun long run to allow for more recovery first. But I'm done with midweek races for the year. >> - 5 miler in Brooklyn 17 September > > Cool. Was hoping for a Stumpus-style old skool 10k or two, but the time and location for this 5 miler was more convenient than any 10k's I found. Close enough, and a sub-34 would land a PR. >> - pair of ober half marathons > > ?? I hope you aren't racing the second one.... Ah, you've missed the WSCPD subthread. Starting with my 1 Sep post, currently message #54 in this tree view: http://tinyurl.com/f89rx >> - NYCM 5 Nov > > Go for it, baby...how many minutes you going to give me for a > friendly wager? I'm doing one in ober. When you mentioned considering a marathon, I immediately wondered if it was that Bizz Johnson race which came up last year. Sounds like a very cool race! How many minutes am *I* giving *you*? Surely you realize I'd need to run more than a 45 minute PR just to equal your time at St. George, let alone what you might uncork this time. :-)     Date: 04 Sep 2006 15:15:18 From: Tony S. Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote in message news:1157349028.493928.275650@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com... > Dan wrote: > > Pendejo wrote > >> Shortest "long" run in quite a while today - babying very mildly > >> sore hip/glute a little (it seems to have appreciated the combo of > >> some ice, massage, lower miles, and ice bath). > > > > Yeah, but that short long run had 8.75 miles of hot sauce in it, making > > it more than the equivalent of an easy 20, in my book... > > In some ways though it's apples to asian pears. These weekly MP runs > (6 building to 10, though I'll also do a 13) don't totally slay me but > they're no joke either, especially since my "MP" may be more aggressive > than prudent. > > But - I'm slowly getting a handle on this, I think my problem with the > 20ish runs isn't systemic exhaustion or plain ol' legs taking a > beating. It has to do with a biomechanical quirk on my right side - SI > joint alignment? whacked piriformis? something there in the > hip/glute/ham region anyway, and probably related to my splay footed > gait - that causes me grief, and I think beyond a certain distance > starts to inflict a lot more damage. Splayed foot? Does that mean turned out, as in not lined up straight when you walk and run? Do you have trouble turning your feet/foot in when you're standing up (e.g. standing pigeon toed)? That is, are muscles holding your foot in a turned out position? That was my problem with my right leg and it was causing chronic hip pain/problems. -Tony > Maybe that's because muscles get tired and form deteriorates (in which > case maybe this year I'm better prepared for that). Still putting > pieces of this puzzle together. > > Pretty sure it's this same biomechanical thing which dealt me the bit > of soreness this week, and has been behind most of my injuries in the > past. > > > >> If feeling good I may do 18-20 next Sunday, and 20-22 in > >> three weeks, to get a few standard marathon long runs in. > > > > Advise against making them too challenging, just train for time and > > endurance. Your other key runs will balance out your training, in > > my humble, non professional coaching opinion. > > Thanks, I hope so. I'm treating long runs as time on feet (and burning > fat, exercising the ticker at an easy aerobic rate, stimulating > mitochondria, ...) The exception has been a few Wed evening 5k's where > I've transplanted Fri's MP mileage into the Sun long run to allow for > more recovery first. But I'm done with midweek races for the year. > > > >> - 5 miler in Brooklyn 17 September > > > > Cool. > > Was hoping for a Stumpus-style old skool 10k or two, but the time and > location for this 5 miler was more convenient than any 10k's I found. > Close enough, and a sub-34 would land a PR. > > > >> - pair of ober half marathons > > > > ?? I hope you aren't racing the second one.... > > Ah, you've missed the WSCPD subthread. Starting with my 1 Sep post, > currently message #54 in this tree view: http://tinyurl.com/f89rx > > > >> - NYCM 5 Nov > > > > Go for it, baby...how many minutes you going to give me for a > > friendly wager? I'm doing one in ober. > > When you mentioned considering a marathon, I immediately wondered if it > was that Bizz Johnson race which came up last year. Sounds like a very > cool race! > > How many minutes am *I* giving *you*? Surely you realize I'd need to > run more than a 45 minute PR just to equal your time at St. George, let > alone what you might uncork this time. :-) >     Date: 04 Sep 2006 20:48:24 From: Dan Stumpus Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote > In some ways though it's apples to asian pears. These weekly MP runs > (6 building to 10, though I'll also do a 13) don't totally slay me but > they're no joke either, especially since my "MP" may be more aggressive > than prudent. Ya know, lots of us in the '80's (when the avg marathon finishing time was 3:30, and ~2000 would break 3hrs at Boston, and a 30 year old had to run 2:49 to qualify, *and* who walked 5 miles to school in 3ft of snow :-) didn't go in for that "pace" stuff. I considered marathon pace runs in that no-man's-land of too slow to be speedwork, and too fast for aerobic training. Typical speed histogram of a week: 8 miles 9:00 or slower (warmups and jogs after speedwork and races) 65 miles 7:30 - 8:15 pace (recovery, long runs) 10 miles 6:30 - 7:00 pace (pickups mixed into runs when feeling good) 6 miles 5:25-5:45 pace (10k race, or tempo work with the guys) 5 miles 4:35 - 5:10 pace (speedwork) 70% trails, 20% pavement, 10% sand (lived at the beach). Marathon pace was just under 6:00/mile at this time. Note that there's a hole in that pace zone. On this training, I was right on the performance curve from 5k thru marathon (was equallly strong at all distances), as were four of my buddies who were very close in talent. I find this way of analyzing the training pretty interesting. Basically, I improved when I moved more % of running into the slower speed zones. (and I recently re-discovered this as a 50+). Anyway, this is just to point out that there's nothing inherently magical about x miles @ MP. I would get a lot more confidence from a 33:xx 10k than 10 miles at 6:00/mile... > But - I'm slowly getting a handle on this, I think my problem with the > 20ish runs isn't systemic exhaustion or plain ol' legs taking a > beating. It has to do with a biomechanical quirk on my right side - SI > joint alignment? whacked piriformis? something there in the > hip/glute/ham region anyway, and probably related to my splay footed > gait - that causes me grief, and I think beyond a certain distance > starts to inflict a lot more damage. Have you gone to a running podiatriast? Lots of problems arise from skeletal anomalies and inherent foot/leg alignment problems. For example, I have a rare foot dysplasia that requires a lot of correction to get a half-decent footplant. Sometimes you just need to balance the tires and fix the wheel alignment (eg, orthotics, etc). I had a host of problems until I: 1) Got the right orthotics. 2) Switched to soft surfaces whenever possible. I also ran faster after the orthotics -- they improved my efficiency along with relieving the muscles from the chore of trying to correct alignment issues. > Maybe that's because muscles get tired and form deteriorates (in which > case maybe this year I'm better prepared for that). Still putting > pieces of this puzzle together. You've mined the muscular area pretty well, maybe look into the structural angle?? >>> - pair of ober half marathons >> >> ?? I hope you aren't racing the second one.... > > Ah, you've missed the WSCPD subthread. Starting with my 1 Sep post, > currently message #54 in this tree view: http://tinyurl.com/f89rx The url didn't work, but I found the thread, and I agree with Steve Common. All out is all out, and my .02 is that you risk injury, to boot, since you are pushing the ragged edge (and doing it well, imo). And echoing Lance, do the pro's ever do that? But if you've got a 3 wk taper planned, good luck to you. Now it's true that I'm doing a marathon (God willing) 6 weeks after my 50k, but it wasn't all out, average speed was ~9:15, and I feel strong a week later. > When you mentioned considering a marathon, I immediately wondered if it > was that Bizz Johnson race which came up last year. Sounds like a very > cool race! Yes, and thanks to one of the listers for the pointer (was it Tony??) > How many minutes am *I* giving *you*? Surely you realize I'd need to > run more than a 45 minute PR just to equal your time at St. George, let > alone what you might uncork this time. :-) Hey, it is just not fair to compare that walk-a-thon you did for charity, for all I know, to a well-funded, heavily researched assault on the low 3's... :-) Anyway, I'll be done first, and give you something which I predict you will surpass. -- Dan   Date: 04 Sep 2006 14:41:42 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Dan wrote: > lots of us in the '80's [...] didn't go in for that "pace" stuff. > I considered marathon pace runs in that no-man's-land > of too slow to be speedwork, and too fast for aerobic training. And a strong majority of training plans published since then still agree. The Hansons' plan is a touch heretical, and I'd be lying if I said that weren't a small part of its appeal. > Anyway, this is just to point out that there's nothing inherently > magical about x miles @ MP. I would get a lot more confidence > from a 33:xx 10k than 10 miles at 6:00/mile... I'm perhaps less naturally confident, but I want both the race time *and* the experience at race pace. :-) And while I understand that "hour race pace" tempo runs work for many, and 3 out of 4 lab technicians prefer it, it feels too hard to be good training to me. And to some on other message boards as well, including an outspoken former American record holder. 20 mins at my 15k pace - solo, in the midst of a full training week - is too close to a time trial effort for me; 6-7 miles of it would be impossible unless downhill at gunpoint. I have confidence that all the MP and MP-10" miles will do good things for my LT, even if not at the lab-tested maximum possible per-mile rate of return. Another thing I believe in is, run enough at a given pace and you'll gain efficiency at that pace, not to mention mental comfort and ability to guage the pace. And lastly: at this still early stage in my running, I think it behooves me to try on a number of different approaches and see what works best (and worst) for me. From fall 05 and spring 06, I've already learned a lot from loosely following a too-slack version of Hadd base training, and a Daniels 10k season. And now this. >> biomechanical quirk > > Have you gone to a running podiatriast? No, and I really ought to see someone, podiatrist or whatever. Have to overcome my inertia, my distrust of dors, and my fear that someone's gonna want to automatically stick me in orthotics I don't need. I do, as you suggest, run on soft surfaces much of the time. > do the pro's ever do that? I agree we can learn much from looking at the pros, but if they don't race HM's three weeks out (and I'm not sure how many do), well, their livelihoods are at stake and maybe they just need to be more risk-averse than reckless ol' me. And hey, the weather could be 85F on marathon day or I'll step on a rusty nail and regret not getting at least a really strong half marathon race out of all this training. > Anyway, I'll be done first, and give you something which I > predict you will surpass. Just don't pull a joe positive... ;-)     Date: 04 Sep 2006 23:55:10 From: Dan Stumpus Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 "Charlie Pendejo" <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote >> I considered marathon pace runs in that no-man's-land >> of too slow to be speedwork, and too fast for aerobic training. > And a strong majority of training plans published since then still > agree. The Hansons' plan is a touch heretical, and I'd be lying if I > said that weren't a small part of its appeal. Well, the stake has been planted, and just gathering up the kindling. What say, medium rare? :-) >> Anyway, this is just to point out that there's nothing inherently >> magical about x miles @ MP. I would get a lot more confidence >> from a 33:xx 10k than 10 miles at 6:00/mile... > > I'm perhaps less naturally confident, but I want both the race time > *and* the experience at race pace. :-) Ah, the old vicious cycle. Well after this one, it won't be an issue. > And while I understand that "hour race pace" tempo runs work for many, > and 3 out of 4 lab technicians prefer it, it feels too hard to be good > training to me. And to some on other message boards as well, including > an outspoken former American record holder. 20 mins at my 15k pace - > solo, in the midst of a full training week - is too close to a time > trial effort for me; 6-7 miles of it would be impossible unless > downhill at gunpoint. Given a sufficient base + experience, it doesn't take the barrel of a gun, just the footsteps of competitors... > I have confidence that all the MP and MP-10" > miles will do good things for my LT, even if not at the lab-tested > maximum possible per-mile rate of return. Truth be told, the Hadd-style runs I do now and which are the favorite runs of the week are typically in the 147hr range, and marathon pace is ~155, so that's roughly 30 sec/mile slower than MP. > Another thing I believe in is, run enough at a given pace and you'll > gain efficiency at that pace, not to mention mental comfort and ability > to guage the pace. I believe that if you get used to running faster than MP for miles, then MP feels quite comfortable on race day for the first 13-15 miles. It may be a preference based on personality type, rather than one rooted in scientific reality. > And lastly: at this still early stage in my running, I think it > behooves me to try on a number of different approaches and see what > works best (and worst) for me. True. I've tried (and still try) lots of stuff. It's a curse I have... >> do the pro's ever do that? > I agree we can learn much from looking at the pros, but if they don't > race HM's three weeks out (and I'm not sure how many do), well, their > livelihoods are at stake and maybe they just need to be more > risk-averse than reckless ol' me. My run with the big boys brought this home when they stopped and tippie-toed through a couple of muddy sections of trail rather than risk a slip. > Just don't pull a joe positive... ;-) >     Date: 05 Sep 2006 09:55:47 From: marko Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Charlie Pendejo a écrit : > Another thing I believe in is, run enough at a given pace and you'll > gain efficiency at that pace, not to mention mental comfort and ability > to guage the pace. I do agree with you, since this was just what I did for my april marathon, and it worked perfectly well : no LT and no speed, only runs in the 75-85 % HRmax range. (see http://tinyurl.com/s8pak until week 13 (avg HR is on the whole runs that's why you won't see it, but their MP runs)) > And hey, the weather could be 85F on marathon day or I'll step on a > rusty nail and regret not getting at least a really strong half > marathon race out of all this training. I don't buy this, you should know what your goal is, shouldn't you? If you want to run a good HM do the one on 10/1 m   Date: 04 Sep 2006 18:08:01 From: Phil M. Subject: re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Day Mi Type, %MHR [other] ------------------ Mon 0.00 rest Tue 10.81 general aerobic, 81%, horrible day Wed 5.20 easy, 70% horrible [weights] Thu 0.00 rest/ Fri 0.00 dnr Sat 0.00 dnr Sun 0.00 dnr ------------------ Week 16 Year 1,495 Training: No training really. I felt really lousy and hideously slow on Tuesday and Wednesday. I decided to take a day off, but it ended up being several days off. I had some major isues with our network at work. I was paged Thursday night, ended up driving into work at 3:00 AM and spent the whole day there. Got paged again Saturday night and stayed up all night working on the problem. I slept all day Sunday until Monday morning (on and off for 24 hours). I hope to get back in the groove today with an easy 10. Maybe the forced 4 days off will get me out of my running funk. Ahh, just got paged again!!! *&(@#$* Have a great week rec.runners! -- Phil M.     Date: 04 Sep 2006 18:55:50 From: bj Subject: Re: Working towards week 4 "Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com > wrote in message news:slrnefjm44.df8.abuse@panix2.panix.com... > > That's great. One thing that's really important to keep in mind with your > training > runs is: > > It's not a race. > > Just aim to complete the run. Pace doesn't matter a whole lot. > Sometimes it's like that in a race, too. bj   Date: 05 Sep 2006 10:14:39 From: Charlie Pendejo Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 marko wrote: > this was just what I did for my april marathon, and it worked > perfectly well : no LT and no speed, only runs in the 75-85% > HRmax range. But I wouldn't feel well-prepared on that alone, though. I ran a lot more faster stuff this spring and summer in a pretty traditional (Daniels) 10k training program, and even more 5k pace work the first several weeks of the marathon program. Plus a set or two of strides weekly and some hard hills. >> the weather could be 85F on marathon day or I'll step on a >> rusty nail and regret not getting at least a really strong half >> marathon race out of all this training. > > I don't buy this, you should know what your goal is, shouldn't you? > If you want to run a good HM do the one on 10/1 Listened to the group and did exactly that last year; regretted it. Among other lessons I've learned: [a] putting all eggs in one basket can be a bigger risk than running another race too close to the goal race [b] I recover from a 21k race in well under three weeks Thanks for your input marko (and it's good to have you back in rr), but this specific advice is falling on deaf ears.     Date: 07 Sep 2006 09:39:45 From: marko Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 Charlie Pendejo a écrit : > [b] I recover from a 21k race in well under three weeks I'm sure you did, this is quite normal, I think an all out HM should be behind you after about one to two weeks at most. The problem is that you first need to taper prior to the HM (in order to run it all out) and then during recovery week, you won't train for your goal marathon. but sure, you should definitely do it if you feel like it, that won't make such a big difference if you aren't expecting race time to be exactly within 10 seconds of your goal ;-) m   Date: 05 Sep 2006 05:38:33 From: anders Subject: Re: Training Week Ending September 3, 2006 marko kirjoitti: > you're right, OTOH when I'm in good shape I like my long runs to go from > 70 to 85% by increasing the pace every 5k or so, with some easy running > in the end. Most of the time though, I run long at about 75% That's fine in my book, too - unless I'm on a schedule that has two other hard or key sessions or unless I'm near the limit of what I can do mileagewise. It's a matter of choice, all roads can lead to Rome, but trying to take two roads simultaneously can take you to some nasty marshes - or at least you risk splitting your pants. > BTW which marathon did you signed for? Not signed yet, the registration hasn't opened, but I've boug