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Date: 30 Oct 2006 21:31:38
From: Charlie Pendejo
Subject: altitude adjustment
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I'd've appended to the thread of a few weeks ago if google would've
allowed me access to it, but something's screwed up with it tonight...
Hey, here's a thread about adjusting times for altitude, and it doesn't
just quote some summary of a study whose bibliography included some
reference to original work by a good friend of Dr. Daniels' next door
neighbor - the man himself chimes in. But screw Daniels; the first
reply by an obvious expert named "mountain goat" offers a valuable,
easily memorized and applied rule of thumb I'm gonna adopt:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1605812
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 08:22:37
From: Charlie Pendejo
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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Donovan wrote:
> It's well known that "Mountain Goat" is the
> leading expert on this topic.
I should say so. Couple years ago driving out of Yellowstone (1), I
spotted Mr. Goat and his significant other near Beartooth Pass at damn
near 11,000 feet. That guy knows what he's talking about, for sure!
(1) Heading east on Beartooth Highway, which is open only about a third
of the year. This highway, number 212, and highway 12 in southern
Utah, are among the most eye-poppingly spectacularly scenic stretches
of road in the lower 48.
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 18:58:49
From: The Trailrunner
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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Charlie Pendejo wrote:
> (1) Heading east on Beartooth Highway, which is open only about a third
> of the year. This highway, number 212, and highway 12 in southern
> Utah, are among the most eye-poppingly spectacularly scenic stretches
> of road in the lower 48.
Charlie,
Going east on Beartooh Pass, you did stop and look back didn't you? I
too was heading east when I first did it but soon realized it was even
better going the other way. So when I got Red Lodge, I turned around and
went back over it again! Charles Karualt (SP?) did a segment on it, and
called it THE most spectacular.
--
- The Trailrunner
Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*
Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 05:52:35
From: LSmith
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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nice article in today's NYT about the altitude in boulder & the runners
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/31/sports/othersports/31boulder.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 13:37:02
From: Elflord
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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On 2006-10-31, Charlie Pendejo <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote:
> I'd've appended to the thread of a few weeks ago if google would've
> allowed me access to it, but something's screwed up with it tonight...
>
> Hey, here's a thread about adjusting times for altitude, and it doesn't
> just quote some summary of a study whose bibliography included some
> reference to original work by a good friend of Dr. Daniels' next door
> neighbor - the man himself chimes in. But screw Daniels; the first
> reply by an obvious expert named "mountain goat" offers a valuable,
> easily memorized and applied rule of thumb I'm gonna adopt:
>
> http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1605812
>
Based on Daniels' comments, Hutch gets about 8 seconds a mile or 3:30 if the whole
race is at 3500ft (I'm doubling the effect to go from 8k to marathon, as per the
shape of the curves in the book).
So the effects of altitude don't compensate for the effects of cheating by running
down ski slopes (-;
But what the hell does he know ? It's well known that "Mountain Goat" is the
leading expert on this topic.
Cheers,
--
Elflord
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Date: 01 Nov 2006 13:53:44
From: Mark Hutchinson
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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Elflord <abuse@aol.com > wrote
> On 2006-10-31, Charlie Pendejo <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I'd've appended to the thread of a few weeks ago if google
>> would've allowed me access to it, but something's screwed up
>> with it tonight...
>>
>> Hey, here's a thread about adjusting times for altitude, and it
>> doesn't just quote some summary of a study whose bibliography
>> included some reference to original work by a good friend of
>> Dr. Daniels' next door neighbor - the man himself chimes in.
>> But screw Daniels; the first reply by an obvious expert named
>> "mountain goat" offers a valuable, easily memorized and applied
>> rule of thumb I'm gonna adopt:
>>
>> http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=1605812
>>
>
> Based on Daniels' comments, Hutch gets about 8 seconds a mile or
> 3:30 if the whole race is at 3500ft (I'm doubling the effect to
> go from 8k to marathon, as per the shape of the curves in the
> book).
"I ran a 3:11 in the 2003 race (tied my PR). Before the race, I drove
and studied the whole course with an altimeter (no, I'm actually not
an engineer). :-) Here are my impressions:
The Good News: The course is net 2,000 feet downhill. By my best
estimates, this will speed up the average person by about 5% (takes
about 10 to 15 minutes off your time). Miles 1 and 3 are full of
rolling hills and are net flat, mile 26 is actually uphill, but the
other 23 miles are all downhill, anywhere from 50 to 200 feet each,
and most of it is a gentle downhill grade, which is perfect for
running fast. Except for miles 1, 3, and 26, there is essentially no
uphill. The official race elevation graph is not misleading (the way
those graphs often are for hilly races that want to appear flat), but
it is off for the first three miles, where it shows mile 1 to be very
downhill & mile 2 to be flat (the opposite is true).
The Bad News: The race is run at altitude (starts at 4,700 feet and
ends at 2,700 feet). Altitude has been scientifically demonstrated to
impair marathon performance in a predictable manner. At 4,700, feet
the damage is 5%, and at 2,700 feet it's between 2 & 3%. So on
average, the altitude effects will slow you down by about 4%,
offsetting most of the benefits of the downhill. In addition, the
course leaves you very exposed to sun and wind. The sun is over head
an hour into the race, and it gets hot (and there are not enough
water and aid stations to keep up). Also, the race is a point-to-
point course (the first half runs east & the second half heads
south), so you are at the mercy of the wind direction. Usually, the
wind is out of the east, so you have a tailwind the first half and
then a cross-wind the second half, but the day I ran, the wind came
from the southwest at 12 miles per hour, which made for an oblique
headwind the whole way. This had a pleasant cooling effect, but at
great energy cost, which made for a slow day for most runners.
So in summary, the downhill speeds you up, but it is offset by other
factors. For me, I'm going to stick to flat races at sea level in
cool conditions."
http://www.marathonguide.com/races/MoreReviews.cfm?MIDD=555061210&Pag
e=4
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Date: 31 Oct 2006 15:28:42
From: Charlie Pendejo
Subject: Re: altitude adjustment
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TR wrote:
> Going east on Beartooth Pass, you did stop and look back didn't you? I
> too was heading east when I first did it but soon realized it was even
> better going the other way. So when I got Red Lodge, I turned around and
> went back over it again!
Ha! Nice move, I bet it was well worth it. I didn't think to do that
but did stop the car a few times to get out and look. One of which, I
spotted Se=F1or Cabra de la Monta=F1a and mistress up above on a ledge.
Having stopped and chatted with folks in the towns near Yellowstone &
the Tetons, my impression was that billionaires were buying up all of
Jackson, millionaires Red Lodge, and a few multi-thousandaires were
invading Cody.
> Charles Karualt (SP?) did a segment on it, and
> called it THE most spectacular.
It's right up there but so is that freakin' highway 12, which is very
much like being on another planet. Or really a couple other planets:
there's a handful of distinctly different regions with their own shapes
and colors.
wreck.runners from other continents, this shit is what you should be
coming to the USA to see. Skip the cities, you've got better ones
anyway in Europe and Asia. Go out west, rent a car for a few weeks,
and have a blast. Gimme a call, maybe I'll come with or at least tell
you where to eat.
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