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Date: 30 May 2006 13:55:40
From: thehick
Subject: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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I just DNFed a 50K short ultra trail. I'm not looking for
advice on that. My fitness level wasn't sufficient and
my mental toughness, well, wasn't tough enough.
So I'll work on those things.
But what I noticed was that plenty of people (I'd say
almost all) were carrying NOTHING! Maybe a couple
of gels. That's it! Some were carrying water which
was funny to me cause there was an Aid Station
every 3 kilometers.
For any trail run, I carry a very basic medical kit,
a whistle, and sufficient snacks to have 300 cals/hour.
Also, salty crackers for sodium. Perhaps one day i'll
test out the caps for electrolytes. I don't want to hope
that the Aid Station will have what I like or the next
runner will have a big bandaid if I cut myself falling.
So, is it me? Am I going overboard? or are these
other runners woefully underprepared for any
untoward event?
The stuff doesn't weigh much. I'm just wondering what
others do.
...thehick
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Date: 31 May 2006 01:04:02
From: Dot
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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thehick wrote:
> I just DNFed a 50K short ultra trail. I'm not looking for
> advice on that. My fitness level wasn't sufficient and
> my mental toughness, well, wasn't tough enough.
> So I'll work on those things.
>
> But what I noticed was that plenty of people (I'd say
> almost all) were carrying NOTHING! Maybe a couple
> of gels. That's it! Some were carrying water which
> was funny to me cause there was an Aid Station
> every 3 kilometers.
I'll tell you what I take for shorter races and runs ;)
Seriously, a lot depends on the logistics of the trail. If you have aid
stations every 3 km, you probably aren't very far from a road, so it's
not like you need wilderness gear in backcountry Alaska. If the
weather's good and the race has a reputation for being reliable about
water, electrolytes, and food - and I didn't mind stopping every 3 km -
it's probably ok to travel with nothing, although I wouldn't venture
forth without fluids and some food. We generally don't have aid stations
although there may be an occasional unofficial one where spectators may
pack fluids in. I'm so used to carrying stuff all the time, that I feel
naked without some minimal amount of gear - my security blanket, if you
will.
>
> For any trail run, I carry a very basic medical kit,
> a whistle, and sufficient snacks to have 300 cals/hour.
I used to do that, but don't anymore on short runs. I'm playing the
odds. When I first started running trails, I didn't, then I happened to
come across a couple accidents (one ATV, one mtn biker) within a
couple weeks of each other so I started carrying some first aid stuff
with me on all runs for awhile - at least paper and pencil to write
phone number on and space blanket to cover victim.
This time of year I generally carry 24 oz of fluids for 45-90 min runs.
If I'm going on a non-urban trail for a few hours, I'll take fluids (at
least 20oz/hr this time of year), a couple energy bars, wheat thins,
M&Ms, salt tabs, 1st aid kit (ace bandages, paper and pencil, space
blanket at least), compass sometimes, hat, rain gear or extra layers
(mittens, face mask, etc) appropriate for the weather. Vaseline. Extra
socks sometimes. Camera. I'll probably go back to carrying survial
whistle that also is match carrying case. Bear spray and/or noise maker.
There's probably some other stuff in there that's escaping my mind at
the moment. Eventually, chemical water treatment tablets. In winter,
headlamp and/or flashlight, extra batteries. Maps. TP. It's not unusual
for my pack to weigh about 10 lb in winter and haven't weighed summer
one, but I could definitely feel the 80oz of fluid in there the other day.
The RD from one of the winter ultras spoke at one of our trail meetings.
If people are confident that they can keep moving, drinking, and
eating, then they can go "race light" (minimal gear). If you have any
doubt about being able to do any one of those, then take more gear.
What I've noticed is that the faster runners tend to pack lighter -
they'll be out there less time, may have crew, but are also tempting
fate sometimes. It's about risk management. But back of packers tend to
carry the kitchen sink. They know they're going to be out there longer,
weather changes, wind chill near freezing on an open ridge, etc., and
they don't like to be stressed out by being poorly prepared.
That said, you should see what some of the ultra runners on another
running site take - where they just go out and run in CA or WYO or
wherever for hours with no roads.
> Also, salty crackers for sodium. Perhaps one day i'll
> test out the caps for electrolytes. I don't want to hope
> that the Aid Station will have what I like or the next
> runner will have a big bandaid if I cut myself falling.
In most cases, I'd be more concerned about cleaning a wound than about
covering it, unless of course, there's layers of skin hanging loose. As
my runs get longer, I'm considering carrying at least some water (not
drink) for first aid to prevent infection before returning to trailhead.
>
> So, is it me? Am I going overboard? or are these
> other runners woefully underprepared for any
> untoward event?
It's calculated risks. I couldn't believe how little some of the
experienced ultra runners up here use for one leg that's 38 mi between
aid stations (and no roads) in summer. OTOH, some have some really
efficient gear that fits in tiny pockets. And others have packs like mine ;)
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
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Date: 31 May 2006 02:57:33
From: Dot
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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I should have clarified the first aid. For non-multi-day runs, I mostly
worry about something that might be life threatening or interfere with
me getting back to trailhead (some left over thoughts from some survival
training 20 yr ago). That is, I might put more emphasis on a compress to
stop bleeding or tape/bandage for ankle/knee than on a bandaid. I do
have some antiseptic towelettes for cleaning wounds that I use when I
don't have water with me. The local hospital frequently provides some
mini-1st aid kits in goody bags - has compresses as well as towelettes.
I should take some duct tape and/or sports tape with me also, but don't
at the moment.
Some will take foot care kits, whatever they need for allergies or other
medications, etc.
Others will definitely have other ideas as to what to carry or not. And
if you're in a well supported race, it shouldn't be too big a deal,
other than carrying your drink mix and food.
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
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Date: 30 May 2006 23:46:45
From: Phil M.
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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thehick@canada.com wrote:
> But what I noticed was that plenty of people (I'd say
> almost all) were carrying NOTHING! Maybe a couple
> of gels. That's it! Some were carrying water which
> was funny to me cause there was an Aid Station
> every 3 kilometers.
In the few ultras that I've been in, I've opted to carry a hand-held bottle
as well as baggies of Cytomax powder. Mainly because I could mix the
Cytomax powder with the aid station's water and not rely on their mixture.
I train with cytomax, it works for me, so I found it benefitial to use it
on race day. Also, I'll carry S! caps. I've really found no need for gels.
I just rely on the aid stations to get the needed calories.
--
Phil M.
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Date: 31 May 2006 11:48:22
From: Doug Freese
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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"Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net > wrote in message
news:Xns97D3C937F90Eseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> thehick@canada.com wrote:
> In the few ultras that I've been in, I've opted to carry a hand-held
> bottle
> as well as baggies of Cytomax powder. Mainly because I could mix the
> Cytomax powder with the aid station's water and not rely on their
> mixture.
Phil I'm a Ctyomax fan for races that are 50 miles or less especially if
the drink de jour is Gatorade. Some years back I was having stomach
problems in my 100's from 70 on. I posted to the big list and Carl K
carefully pointed out the Cyto has too much potassium and can upsets
your gut. When I switched to Clip and Slimfast they went away. Just a
heads up if you having stomach problems later in the race with Cyto.
-Doug
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Date: 31 May 2006 06:50:56
From: Phil M.
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Doug Freese wrote:
> <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1149079140.512349.209860@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> > Doug Freese wrote:
> >> some music roll which I hope does not explanation
> >
> > OK, so maybe it doesn't for every other reader, but I'm a little
> > dense.
> >
> > What the hell, Doug - are there player pianos every ten miles, and
> > you're responsible for their programming? Is this the only way you
> > can, ahem, carry a tune?
> >
> > Ah... wait, now I get it. The song on this player piano roll: it's in
> > the key of squeezably soft, right?
>
> Charminesque so to speak. Music roll sans aloe, aka leaves, will not
> wipe the smile off the music sheet and take you into the brown zone. ;)
Charlie, please see Tom Wheeler for translation.
--
Phil M.
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Date: 31 May 2006 05:39:00
From:
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Doug Freese wrote:
> some music roll which I hope does not explanation
OK, so maybe it doesn't for every other reader, but I'm a little dense.
What the hell, Doug - are there player pianos every ten miles, and
you're responsible for their programming? Is this the only way you
can, ahem, carry a tune?
Ah... wait, now I get it. The song on this player piano roll: it's in
the key of squeezably soft, right?
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Date: 31 May 2006 13:12:28
From: Doug Freese
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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<Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1149079140.512349.209860@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Doug Freese wrote:
>> some music roll which I hope does not explanation
>
> OK, so maybe it doesn't for every other reader, but I'm a little
> dense.
>
> What the hell, Doug - are there player pianos every ten miles, and
> you're responsible for their programming? Is this the only way you
> can, ahem, carry a tune?
>
> Ah... wait, now I get it. The song on this player piano roll: it's in
> the key of squeezably soft, right?
Charminesque so to speak. Music roll sans aloe, aka leaves, will not
wipe the smile off the music sheet and take you into the brown zone. ;)
-DF
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Date: 31 May 2006 12:16:33
From: Doug Freese
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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"thehick" <thehick@canada.com > wrote in message
news:1149022540.415721.94430@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>I just DNFed a 50K short ultra trail. I'm not looking for
> advice on that. My fitness level wasn't sufficient and
> my mental toughness, well, wasn't tough enough.
> So I'll work on those things.
Or your pace was too fast for your condition but we'll skip that. Isn't
this a juicier question. ;)
> But what I noticed was that plenty of people (I'd say
> almost all) were carrying NOTHING! Maybe a couple
> of gels. That's it! Some were carrying water which
> was funny to me cause there was an Aid Station
> every 3 kilometers.
While every 3k is very frequent some people do not like to gulp their
fluids at the aid station and prefer to sip frequently via a bottle or
camel back. On a cool temp 50k I would not carry anything, but add a
little heat and I'd carry a jug even if it's it just 1/2 full.
> For any trail run, I carry a very basic medical kit,
> a whistle, and sufficient snacks to have 300 cals/hour.
> Also, salty crackers for sodium. Perhaps one day i'll
> test out the caps for electrolytes.
You carry a sleeve of saltines crackers? don't hey end up in small
pieces. For a 50k a few s!caps are lot easier than crackers. If a
training run then take what you need, If it's a race find out what they
do provide and use the aid stations. A note to the RD before the race
should answer these questions if the web page doesn't.
> I don't want to hope
> that the Aid Station will have what I like or the next
> runner will have a big band if I cut myself falling.
All the races I have run have kits at their aid stations. If you
running a bare bones race then carry what you need, if not, it's more
crap to haul around.
> So, is it me? Am I going overboard? or are these
> other runners woefully under for any
> untoward event?
If they are finishing and finishing in front of you, you know the
answer. ;)
> The stuff doesn't weigh much. I'm just wondering what
> others do.
I guess it all relative but in the ideal race I like to carry nothing
but my butt. In reality I carry a bottle and fill it knowing how far
it's to the next aid station in time not miles, some music roll which I
hope does not explanation and some salt caps. I will carry zip-lock bags
of Cytomax power if the race only has Gatorade.
-D
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Date: 31 May 2006 18:22:46
From: Dot
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Doug Freese wrote:
> "thehick" <thehick@canada.com> wrote in message
> news:1149022540.415721.94430@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
>>For any trail run, I carry a very basic medical kit,
>>a whistle, and sufficient snacks to have 300 cals/hour.
>>Also, salty crackers for sodium. Perhaps one day i'll
>>test out the caps for electrolytes.
>
>
> You carry a sleeve of saltines crackers? don't hey end up in small
> pieces. For a 50k a few s!caps are lot easier than crackers.
Wheat thins carry reasonably well in a belt pouch, as long as you don't
sit on them. Common part of standard field lunch for years. I'll
sometimes prefer some wheat thins on a run (say, 3 hr) rather than an
energy bar and S!caps. I suspect I'd be eating more on longer runs, but
the wheat thins are a good alternative - esp. if someone might have
trouble swallowing capsules. (I haven't had that problem, but I wouldn't
rule out the possibility.)
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
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Date: 31 May 2006 04:52:35
From: Phil M.
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Doug Freese wrote:
> "Phil M." <pmarg@charter.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns97D3C937F90Eseilogramp@216.77.188.18...
> > thehick@canada.com wrote:
> > In the few ultras that I've been in, I've opted to carry a hand-held
> > bottle
> > as well as baggies of Cytomax powder. Mainly because I could mix the
> > Cytomax powder with the aid station's water and not rely on their
> > mixture.
>
> Phil I'm a Ctyomax fan for races that are 50 miles or less especially if
> the drink de jour is Gatorade. Some years back I was having stomach
> problems in my 100's from 70 on. I posted to the big list and Carl K
> carefully pointed out the Cyto has too much potassium and can upsets
> your gut. When I switched to Clip and Slimfast they went away. Just a
> heads up if you having stomach problems later in the race with Cyto.
That may happen when/if I start running the all day events. For races
under 12 hours I seem to be OK with Cytomax.
--
Phil M.
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Date: 31 May 2006 08:39:30
From: Dot
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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thehick wrote:
>
> So, is it me? Am I going overboard? or are these
> other runners woefully underprepared for any
> untoward event?
Couple other thoughts occurred to me while reading UR this evening. (1)
Some people are supremely confident that they can run with minimal gear
(and have the experience to do it reasonably safely). (2) And others are
just so dang ignorant, they may not know about hydration, electrolytes,
and fuel and/or don't know what lies out there (talking about
backcountry trails, not urban trails).
I know I've learned a lot from this and other groups over the last 5 yr,
but more importantly, learned that some issues even exist so I can do
more homework on them. Some local runners I know are more experienced,
but just had local training, and I don't think appreciate the issues of
hydration, etc. I know there's people in other online groups that have
run multiple marathons and don't know what base training is.
BTW, some of our mountain races do require some gear since the weather
can be such a major factor when crossing mountain passes.
Dot
--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope
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Date: 31 May 2006 17:29:10
From: thehick
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Dan Stumpus wrote:
> "thehick" <thehick@canada.com> wrote
> ...> > my mental toughness, well, wasn't tough enough.
> Truth be told, if you're well trained and go slow enough, not all that much
> mental toughness is required...
The race was supposed to be a 10K loop and 2 loops of the 20K
main trail. I had a family member at the start/finish line who
I expected to see at the 10K and 30K points. He had
some gatorade flavor that i like, a sandwich that i made and
spare shoes/socks. After the race started, it was changed
by the race director to 2 X 20K loops and then the 10K!
One of the course marshalls had made a mistake and not
directed the 50K people to the 10K loop. So he had to
do something. They tried to tell everyone but you know
how it goes. Some don't get told. me for one. Well, after
I was going for 2 full hours, I figured I had taken a wrong turn.
At 2 and a half I was very sure that I had done something wrong.
At 2 hours 42 minutes I hit the start/finish, fessed up that
I had missed the course somehow and was dropping out.
When I sat down, I saw the sign telling us about the new
course layout. But it was too late. I was out.
That's what I mean about mental toughness. As soon as
I thought that I had made a big boo-boo, I gave up. Next
time, I will go in with the intention to put in my expected
time at least. Even if they make me run in a small circle.
...
> I do wonder about the whistle, though...I haven't heard of any ultra runners
> getting terminally lost, but I suppose it's possible. One acquaintance
> carries a satellite phone.
i carry the whistle cause I have it and have read a lot about people
getting lost when they were very close to getting found. If I trip
and fall down into a gully, I'll be quite pleased with myself to
have that whistle. And it weighs virtually nothing. I carry my
cell but have found that mostly it doesn't work in the locations
where I run (races). I carry a digital camera too. I want to
remember these runs. They are all interesting to me.
...theick
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Date: 31 May 2006 23:08:00
From: Dan Stumpus
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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"thehick" <thehick@canada.com > wrote
>I just DNFed a 50K short ultra trail. I'm not looking for
> advice on that. My fitness level wasn't sufficient and
> my mental toughness, well, wasn't tough enough.
> So I'll work on those things.
Truth be told, if you're well trained and go slow enough, not all that much
mental toughness is required...
> But what I noticed was that plenty of people (I'd say
> almost all) were carrying NOTHING! Maybe a couple
> of gels. That's it! Some were carrying water which
> was funny to me cause there was an Aid Station
> every 3 kilometers.
I carry some vaseline to ward off chaffing, my favorite race food (eg,
cookies, bits of quesadilla, etc), and a baggie of Succeed-caps. If a cold
early am start, my gloves or cap. In your race, I'd still carry a bottle,
just because it's easier to refill every 6k and drink on the run, rather
than stop every 3k.
> For any trail run, I carry a very basic medical kit,
Defibrillator? :-) Seriously, if we fall and scrape our knees and arms,
most of us would rather show our bloody wounds than wear a Cinderella
bandage...Just rinse it off with whatever's in the bottle and carry on...
> a whistle, and sufficient snacks to have 300 cals/hour.
> Also, salty crackers for sodium.
The poor man's S-cap! It's amazing how good salt tastes when you need it...
> Perhaps one day i'll
> test out the caps for electrolytes. I don't want to hope
> that the Aid Station will have what I like or the next
> runner will have a big bandaid if I cut myself falling.
I hear there are some cute pink Show White bandaids available... :-)
> So, is it me? Am I going overboard? or are these
> other runners woefully underprepared for any
> untoward event?
> The stuff doesn't weigh much. I'm just wondering what
> others do.
It weighs so little, there's no harm.
Heck, I might even bring some gauze pads and a roll of tape.
I do wonder about the whistle, though...I haven't heard of any ultra runners
getting terminally lost, but I suppose it's possible. One acquaintance
carries a satellite phone.
-- Dan
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Date: 31 May 2006 14:05:59
From: thehick
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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lanceandrew@aol.com wrote:
> Date: Sat, May 6 2006 8:15 pm
> Email: "thehick" <theh...@canada.com>
> " if i dnf and don't run for 6 months, well, you tried to tell me".
> _
>
> ....that i did, and i take no joy in predicting your dnf. how's the
> groin? if you did no damage in that regard, you're lucky.
I did 20K with no problems. The last K or 2, my groin was
beginning to hint at a bit of pain. I really doubt if I would
have finished no matter what because I've hardly run
the last few months but I wanted to try.
I ran 6K yesterday and it seems ok. building up this
week.
the ITBS that flared up in a short trail run 2 weeks previous
is gone. I began an intensive stretch/strengthen routine
immediately and I think it's licked for this year. that's
what had me worried. i've run 25K once with ITBS
in full force and I'll say, it wasn't easy. i never want
that again.
but thanks for taking the time to remember and to ask.
...thehick
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Date: 31 May 2006 14:01:17
From: thehick
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Dot wrote:
> I should have clarified the first aid. For non-multi-day runs, I mostly
> worry about something that might be life threatening or interfere with
> me getting back to trailhead (some left over thoughts from some survival
> training 20 yr ago). That is, I might put more emphasis on a compress to
> stop bleeding or tape/bandage for ankle/knee than on a bandaid.
...
A little clarification. I have a small roll of medical tape and a
little
antiseptic tube. some anti-histamine tablets and, yes, some
bandaids. I know I'm going to fall and I'd rather be able
to clean the cut and tape it up than ruin the next runners day
by asking them for help.
the crackers keep fine. I have a fanny pouch with 3 vertical pockets.
the middle one is for a bottle and i just fill it with packets of
crackers. not the sleeves. unless i fall backwards, they'll be safe.
and if they get all crushed, that's ok too. maybe easier to eat even.
the crackers also serve to feed me calories. if i took caps, i'd still
need to supplement with snacks.
i do think i'm carrying too much tho. i packed on the friday
night and my calculations of requirements was a bit generous.
probably could have done with half. i'm ok with drinking at
the aid stations cause i'm in no rush. for me, 50K would
be about 8 hours. an hour either way spent relaxing
and drinking/chatting won't matter.
i think the hint that people do what they do for different
reasons is a good one. the inexperienced don't have a clue.
those with plenty of experience and skills will be fine
no matter what. i'm in the middle towards the bottom.
so i bring what lets me feel mentally comfortable..
...thehick
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Date: 31 May 2006 11:18:07
From:
Subject: Re: What do you carry for a marathon or longer?
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Date: Sat, May 6 2006 8:15 pm
Email: "thehick" <theh...@canada.com >
" if i dnf and don't run for 6 months, well, you tried to tell me".
_
....that i did, and i take no joy in predicting your dnf. how's the
groin? if you did no damage in that regard, you're lucky.
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