| |
Main
Date: 28 May 2006 14:49:51
From: John Banks
Subject: Vermont City Marathon
|
Posted a few times this past week for advice on ITBS and some
conditioning issues as I was training for the Vermont City Marathon
with a sub-3 goal in mind.
IT held up fine (had some cortisone treatments this week), but the heat
did me in. It was about 63-64 at the start (8:30) and mid-70's by the
time I finished with a 3:05.
I was doing fine until the 22.5 mile mark, about 2 minutes ahead of my
6:50 mile pace, but my quads started cramping up. Bad. Had to
walk/stretch/walk a few times.
Overall, happy with the results, knocked a few minutes off my previous
best - but, still chasing that elusive sub-3.
Plan on signing up for an ober marathon - typically the heat is not
an issue at that time of the year here in New England.
Thanks for all the responses and advice to my inquiries
|
|
| |
Date: 28 May 2006 23:49:45
From: Dan Stumpus
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
"John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com > wrote
> I was doing fine until the 22.5 mile mark, about 2 minutes ahead of my
> 6:50 mile pace, but my quads started cramping up. Bad. Had to
> walk/stretch/walk a few times.
John:
Good race. I predicted a 4 minute decrease in your marathon time due to
your lower level of training the last few weeks. I kept my mouth shut, but
that would have put you right at 3:00, imo.
The reason you didn't make it was the cramps. Cramps are not caused by heat
per se. They are caused when you lose more than x% of your body weight due
to dehydration. In my case it's about 4% (or 6 lbs). I will cramp every
time. If you had managed to drink another 1 or 2 quarts during your race,
you would have had your 3:00. 75 degrees won't slow you much at all if you
are thin and get enough to drink so you can sweat freely. You probably
didn't weigh yourself before and after, but I'd wager you had lost at least
4% of your body weight when you started cramping.
It took me a couple of years to figure this stuff out. I would cramp on
long races and was at my wits end. Everyone said it was a mineral
imbalance, and they were only partly right.
Here's the short course on hydration / salt /cramping: 16oz of sweat (1lb)
contains about 1/2 tsp of salt, about 600 mg. Say your sweat rate on a warm
day when racing is 32 oz/hour (mine is 40-50). After 2.5 hours (around mile
22 for you), you've lost 5 lbs of water and a lot of salt. If you've sipped
a 4 ounces at 5 aid stations, you're still down nearly 4 lbs -- 1/2 gallon!
Moreover, water has almost no salt, and sports drinks have alot less than
what's needed to replenish your stores.
When the body gets low on salt, your stomach gets queasy, and whatever you
drink sloshes around and doesn't absorb. So you don't drink, and a vicious
cycle ensues. The water sloshes because your body has to pump salt into
your stomach to absorb the water, and when you're low on salt (because of
copious sweating), the body is reluctant to do that because doing so will
further reduce your body's salt concentration. (very bad things can happen
if it gets too low, see Hyponatremia).
Solution: drink to approximate your fluid loss (you can be down a lb or two
without much noticable effect), and take a Succeed salt cap for every 16oz
you drink to keep your salt concentration stable. I carry a 24 oz bottle in
a belt pack which I refill every few miles and drink on the run about 6oz a
mile (my approximate fluid loss when racing a marathon). I find I can get
in enough water this way with very little lost time. I usually just take
one cap every time I refill the bottle.
Therefore, if you had taken a salt tablet and chugged 20-30 ounces at the
first sign of cramps, they would have disappeared within a minute or two.
Then you could have resumed your pace. I've recovered from cramps mid-race
twice, so it works. Taking a salt cap (I chew them so I don't have to wait
for the gelatin to dissolve in the stomach) with your water will cause it to
be absorbed amazingly quickly -- I've absorbed a quart in 2-3 minutes on a
100 degree day. I feel so bad for the cramped up runners I pass, but don't
have time to give them this lesson.
Good luck. You'll do it next time. You've got the training down, next
subject: fluid management. In the meantime you might want to do some
before/after weighing of yourself under various conditions to get an idea of
how your body dehydrates.
On shorter races like a 10k, I don't bother stopping at all lately. Being
down a couple of lbs isn't enough to slow me more than the time it takes to
drink the 32 ounces I lose...but marathons and ultras are a different story.
-- Dan
|
| |
Date: 29 May 2006 06:04:19
From: John Banks
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
I was actually researching fall marathons this morning and was
targeting both of those - the Lowell (Bay States) and the Albany
(Hudson Mohawk). Everyone seems to agree that they are fast courses.
As far as the VT City, I felt as if I was taking in fluids as fast as I
possibly could - both carrying a 10oz hand-held filled with gatorade
(my wife handed me 2 new ones throughout the race, so a total of 3),
plus I was hydrating at all the water stops.
Unfortunately, all of my training was done in weather that was in the
mid-to-high 40's and below. I just was not acclimated to 65-75 degree
weather.
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2006 14:55:13
From: Parker Race
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
John Banks wrote:
> I was actually researching fall marathons this morning and was
> targeting both of those - the Lowell (Bay States) and the Albany
> (Hudson Mohawk). Everyone seems to agree that they are fast courses.
Several of my team mates have set their PRs on the HMRRC course. I like
the Lowell course because it's a two loop course rather than point to
point. Don't expect a lot of spectators in either event if that's
something you like.
>
> As far as the VT City, I felt as if I was taking in fluids as fast as I
> possibly could - both carrying a 10oz hand-held filled with gatorade
> (my wife handed me 2 new ones throughout the race, so a total of 3),
> plus I was hydrating at all the water stops.
>
> Unfortunately, all of my training was done in weather that was in the
> mid-to-high 40's and below. I just was not acclimated to 65-75 degree
> weather.
>
That can be a definite disadvantage in the North East in Spring
Marathons. I noticed the 2nd place woman (2:48:55)was a Masters runner
from Arizona.
A very talented 28 year old woman from our area ran 3:10
Parker
|
| | |
Date: 29 May 2006 14:26:45
From: Phil M.
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
banks560@hotmail.com wrote:
> I was actually researching fall marathons this morning and was
> targeting both of those - the Lowell (Bay States) and the Albany
> (Hudson Mohawk). Everyone seems to agree that they are fast courses.
If you want fast and would consider a trip to PA, then Steamtown might be
worth consideration.
http://www.steamtownmarathon.com
--
Phil M.
|
| | | |
Date: 29 May 2006 14:44:34
From: Parker Race
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
Phil M. wrote:
> banks560@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>I was actually researching fall marathons this morning and was
>>targeting both of those - the Lowell (Bay States) and the Albany
>>(Hudson Mohawk). Everyone seems to agree that they are fast courses.
>
>
> If you want fast and would consider a trip to PA, then Steamtown might be
> worth consideration.
>
> http://www.steamtownmarathon.com
>
The quads say, Ouch!!
Honestly I considered that race, but isn't it like Boston without the
Newton Hills?
|
| | | | |
Date: 29 May 2006 14:55:56
From: Phil M.
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
prace@internal.int wrote:
> Phil M. wrote:
>> If you want fast and would consider a trip to PA, then Steamtown
>> might be worth consideration.
>>
>> http://www.steamtownmarathon.com
>>
>
> The quads say, Ouch!!
> Honestly I considered that race, but isn't it like Boston without the
> Newton Hills?
I ran it for a BQ in 2004. I did not have any quad issues during or after
the race. I do train on rolling hills, so maybe that saved me. You're
right, it is similar to Boston. It even has its own version of heartbreak
hill.
--
Phil M.
|
| |
Date: 29 May 2006 12:57:48
From: Parker Race
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
"John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1148852990.946492.34620@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Posted a few times this past week for advice on ITBS and some
> conditioning issues as I was training for the Vermont City Marathon
> with a sub-3 goal in mind.
>
> IT held up fine (had some cortisone treatments this week), but the heat
> did me in. It was about 63-64 at the start (8:30) and mid-70's by the
> time I finished with a 3:05.
I'm guess I'm glad the forecast was right and I didn't make the trip, though
it would have been a good day to be a spectator!
>
> I was doing fine until the 22.5 mile mark, about 2 minutes ahead of my
> 6:50 mile pace, but my quads started cramping up. Bad. Had to
> walk/stretch/walk a few times.
Been there done that, it's frustrating.
Maybe Dan's advice will work for you.
I don't think it would for me, I think I'd need to run with a IV to run a
Marathon in those conditions and not get dehydrated, or just run it very
slowly.
>
> Overall, happy with the results, knocked a few minutes off my previous
> best - but, still chasing that elusive sub-3.
You should be able to get there based on your performance on a day that
wasn't optimal. If memory serves there's not a lot of shade on the VCM
course.
>
> Plan on signing up for an ober marathon - typically the heat is not
> an issue at that time of the year here in New England.
>
Bay State in Lowell MA is a fast course. It's gotten a lot of bad press in
the past but it was very well run when I ran it 2004. Another is The Hudson
Mohawk Road Runners Club Fall Marathon in Albany NY, it has a net drop of
200 feet or so.
Both are in ober.
> Thanks for all the responses and advice to my inquiries
>
|
| |
Date: 30 May 2006 15:07:27
From: Teresa Bippert-Plymate
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
John Banks wrote:
Congrats, John! I think Dan's advice is spot-on about the hydration,
still sorry that you got hit with the cramps. Next time, go for the
sub-3, I think you'll do it! And big congrats for the PR!
Teresa in AZ
> IT held up fine (had some cortisone treatments this week), but the heat
> did me in. It was about 63-64 at the start (8:30) and mid-70's by the
> time I finished with a 3:05.
>
> I was doing fine until the 22.5 mile mark, about 2 minutes ahead of my
> 6:50 mile pace, but my quads started cramping up. Bad. Had to
> walk/stretch/walk a few times.
>
> Overall, happy with the results, knocked a few minutes off my previous
> best - but, still chasing that elusive sub-3.
|
| |
Date: 31 May 2006 12:19:28
From: John Banks
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
Thanks to all for the kind words/advice.
To answer your question Mike; my likes & dislikes;
Pros: It is a spectator friendly marathon, my wife & kids were able to
see me 5 different times with very short walks in between. It also is
very well supported by the local community, with the exception of a few
areas, lots of people cheering you on; and, for the most part, well
organized.
Cons: Not the greatest course, a couple out & back loops that are
fairly boring and somewhat exposed (on windy days they can be a real
bear); one section of the course goes over bare ground and after all
the rain these past few weeks, it was a muddy/rutty mess.
The pros outweigh the cons, not a bad event for the most part.
Mike wrote:
> "John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148852990.946492.34620@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> > Posted a few times this past week for advice on ITBS and some
> > conditioning issues as I was training for the Vermont City Marathon
> > with a sub-3 goal in mind.
>
> Why don't they call it the Vermont Country Marathon. Theirs sounds a little
> odd to me.
>
> If you live in Burlington/Vermont, what do you like/dislike about it?
>
> Congrats on your achievement. Btw, the new agers are saying that tonic
> water (really the quinine in it) helps relieve cramps.
|
| | |
Date: 31 May 2006 19:38:07
From: Doug Freese
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
"John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1149103168.167420.129240@i40g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> Pros: It is a spectator friendly marathon, my wife & kids were able
> to
> see me 5 different times with very short walks in between. It also is
> very well supported by the local community, with the exception of a
> few
> areas, lots of people cheering you on; and, for the most part, well
> organized.
>
> Cons: Not the greatest course, a couple out & back loops that are
> fairly boring and somewhat exposed (on windy days they can be a real
> bear); one section of the course goes over bare ground and after all
> the rain these past few weeks, it was a muddy/rutty mess.
>
> The pros outweigh the cons, not a bad event for the most part.
I've it 3-4 times and I agree with both the good and bad. For some
reason the race is still a steady target for close to 20 folks from my
local area.
-DF
|
| |
Date: 31 May 2006 08:51:40
From: Mike
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
"John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com > wrote in message
news:1148852990.946492.34620@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Posted a few times this past week for advice on ITBS and some
> conditioning issues as I was training for the Vermont City Marathon
> with a sub-3 goal in mind.
Why don't they call it the Vermont Country Marathon. Theirs sounds a little
odd to me.
If you live in Burlington/Vermont, what do you like/dislike about it?
Congrats on your achievement. Btw, the new agers are saying that tonic
water (really the quinine in it) helps relieve cramps.
|
| | |
Date: 31 May 2006 19:35:47
From: Doug Freese
Subject: Re: Vermont City Marathon
|
"Mike" <bakerdivert@lava.net > wrote in message
news:127rplgmcjdvj24@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "John Banks" <banks560@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1148852990.946492.34620@j73g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> Posted a few times this past week for advice on ITBS and some
>> conditioning issues as I was training for the Vermont City Marathon
>> with a sub-3 goal in mind.
>
> Why don't they call it the Vermont Country Marathon. Theirs sounds a
> little
> odd to me.
With exception of a little bike path in the beginning and at the end it
runs through the streets of Burlington. is nice city but a far cry from
a country atmosphere.
-DF
|
|
