Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

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Date: 17 Aug 2006 12:41:35
From: George
Subject: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
stretching etc. I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
(I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
10Ks regularly without having shin pain. I currently run in Brooks
Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)

I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running. I started to
think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I
should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.
I notice that when I run barefoot (lightly jog in my house), I always
land on the balls of my feet. When I run with good running shoes, I
find running like that hard to do and I tend to heel-toe it a bit.

Does anyone have experience with this? Will trying barefoot running
help correct technical issues with my running and actually help this
problem? I really look forward to hearing any insight people have on
this issue (barefoot-style running and chronic injuries).

Date: 18 Aug 2006 00:44:47
From: bagpip
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

And HERE we have the problem.
You need to explore new shoes.

"George" <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote in message
news:1155843695.651219.93010@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
> I started to
> think

Date: 17 Aug 2006 22:27:31
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-17, George <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:
> I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
> articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
> shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
> stretching etc. I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
> (I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
> frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
> 10Ks regularly without having shin pain. I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
> tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)

Cushioning *AND* motion control ? If you are a candidate for one type
of shoe, you're not a candidate for the other. Are you an overpronator
or an underpronator ?

Also, could you describe your training regimen ? What do you do in a
typical training week ? How fast do you do your training runs ? They
should be much slower than 10k race pace (1:30 or more minutes/mile
slower)

> I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running.

I wouldn't recommend reading "Men's Health" for serious advice about
running.

> I started to
> think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
> solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
> shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I

Yes, maybe the Brooks Beast *plus* stiff orthotics *plus* bandaging yourself
up like a mummy is just *a little bit* of an overkill. It's a wonder you
can even move strapped up like that, let alone run.

> should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
> barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.

So if one extreme fails, you try the other ? Good luck.

> I notice that when I run barefoot (lightly jog in my house), I always
> land on the balls of my feet. When I run with good running shoes, I
> find running like that hard to do and I tend to heel-toe it a bit.

Yes, and ... ?

> Does anyone have experience with this? Will trying barefoot running
> help correct technical issues with my running and actually help this
> problem? I really look forward to hearing any insight people have on
> this issue (barefoot-style running and chronic injuries).

You are probably wearing way too much shoe. That doesn't mean you should
suddenly jump to the opposite extreme, but if it's not working, you should
consider using a little less shoe. Brooks beast is probably the most extreme
MC shoe on the market, and you're adding orthotics to that. But jumping to the
other extreme might not be the best solution.

I'd suggest going to a running store, and getting fitted for a shoe that
matches your gait type. That is, find out whether you should be wearing
a posted shoe or not.

Once you've done that, try running in a less extreme shoe. For example,
Asics DS Trainer, Mizuno Elixir (these are light stability) or Mizuno
Precision (light cushion)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 18 Aug 2006 00:47:26
From: bagpip
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

"Donovan Rebbechi" <abuse@aol.com > wrote in message
> I wouldn't recommend reading

Hence Donovans problem...

Date: 17 Aug 2006 21:50:05
From: Ozzie Gontang
Subject: The BA BA Ball/Heel Atavist manifesto

In article <1155843695.651219.93010@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >,
"George" <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:

> I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
> articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
> shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
> stretching etc. I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
> (I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
> frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
> 10Ks regularly without having shin pain. I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
> tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)
>
> I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running. I started to
> think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
> solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
> shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I
> should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
> barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.
> I notice that when I run barefoot (lightly jog in my house), I always
> land on the balls of my feet. When I run with good running shoes, I
> find running like that hard to do and I tend to heel-toe it a bit.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this? Will trying barefoot running
> help correct technical issues with my running and actually help this
> problem? I really look forward to hearing any insight people have on
> this issue (barefoot-style running and chronic injuries).

The BA BA Ball/Heel Atavist Manifesto: Inspired by the Writings of Sharon
Sly on RWOL Forums
c. 2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. and GAPO Associates

On February 19 2001 at 5:51 PM, Sharon Sly wrote:

> When I go running after about five miles my feet at the bottom feel as if
they are burning. I have bought insoles for my trainers. I also tried
different socks. Has anyone got any ideas?

Dear Fellow Runners:

If the shoe stops and your foot inside the shoe slides forward just a
little
for five miles, the little bit of friction done several thousand times
will
cause what you describe as burning feet.

If after your shoe lands, your foot inside the shoe starts to slide back
just a little in the early stage of push off and does that for five
miles,
the little bit of friction done several thousand times will cause what
you
describe as burning feet.

The following experiments should be carried out under the watchful eye
of an
exercise physiologist or a sports physician. Parental supervision is
strongly advised.

In reality these are merely mental visualizations. The truth is that
most
adults (excluding you) have experienced the following in a moment of
childhood inexperience or ignorance.

To get an idea of what I am saying. Turn a bike over and start to spin
the
wheel as fast as you can with your open hand. When you spin it at the
rate
it is going, there is no friction. If you spin it lightly there is no or
minimal trauma or bruising to your fingers/open hand as there would be if
you hit it hard but at the same rate of spin.

If you spin it a little faster than it is going then you are creating a
little friction and after several thousand slaps/strokes/pushes with the
open hand you will find that you will cause what you describe as burning
feet, but it will be with your hand.

If you spin it a little slower than it is going then you are creating a
little friction and after several thousand slaps/strokes/pushes with the
open hand you will find that you will cause what you describe as burning
feet, but it will be with your hand.

If you are impatient and want to experience it quickly then get the tire
going as fast as you can. The easiest way is to crank the pedals. Now
with
your fingers/open hand push them onto the spinning tire to stop it in
several seconds. You will find that you will have taken the burning feet
experience to the max. The blisters on your hand will heal in several
days.
This is a one time learning experience.

If your feet are moving faster or slower than your shoes, this could
explain
the burning sensation on you feet.

Anyway, here's the Folklore of Going Sockless as another way of
understanding what is happening to give you hot feet rather than
frictionless running which would give you happy feet:

The Folklore of Going Sockless
http://www.mindfulness.com/of3.html

Actually all the above could be incorrect if the real problem is that
your
foot slaps down just lightly each step. This will surely happen is you
land
on the "back of the heel of the shoe." This causes a trigger effect that
is
similar to the bar of a mouse trap coming down. If you have enough high
technology cushioning and thick heels, the light slap to the bottoms of
the
feet will take about 5 miles to cause the burning sensation on the foot
bottoms. Interesting!

If you want to have this experience, take a ruler and start to lightly
tap/slap on the back of your hand. Be sure to count the number of slaps.
Progress until you had demonstrated what several hundred/thousand slaps
can
accomplish when administered in rapid succession.

This can be understood by a Theory of Ann Elk. Actually it isn't Ann
Elk's
Theory. It my Theory. It's a Theory by me. It's a Theory by me, Ozzie
who
is not an Aussie, but who is married to an Aussie. And this is my
Theory:

The Running Theory of GAPO

http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-56317.html

Burning feet could be understood by using Theory B or Theory A or a
combination of the two theories which would be a BA Theory. A
combination
of these two theories has been met with disapproval by a number of
present
day land-heel-first theorists. The BA theorists, many of them residing
at
rec.running newsgroup and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/theroadsscholar
while gaining some small moments of recognition, continue to be called
by
the land-heel-first theorists: BA BA Black Sheep. At times these
land-heel-first theorists have been heard mumbling under their breath,
"BA
humbug, we won't let them BA BA bums get to first BA BA base with the
BA BA
ball/heel BA BA bunch of BA BA bull.

The BA BA Ball/Heel theorists ask the mindful runner to begin to think
and
tinker with graceful running. The BA BA Ball/Heel theorists ask the
Land-Heel-First theorists and you to march in place. Notice what touches
the ground first:

Virtual Running Clinic Exercise 1
http://www.cyclingforums.com/archive/index.php/t-185916.html

The reason for beginning the Virtual Running Clinic was to expose all
runners to Runners' Mind/BA BA Beginners' Mind. This is the BA BA
beginning
of BA BA becoming a BA BA Ball/Heel BA BA Beginning Runner.

Check out my article on Ken Bob Saxton's Barefoot Running site:
http://www.runningbarefoot.org/?name=BallHeelBallCorrectWayRun1998Gontang

Ozzie Gontang
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
Director,San Diego Marathon Clinic
Mindful Running www.mindfulness.com
Advocate/Apologist for the BA BA Black Sheep

Date: 17 Aug 2006 21:30:45
From: Ozzie Gontang
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

In article <1155843695.651219.93010@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com >,
"George" <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:

> I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
> articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
> shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
> stretching etc. I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
> (I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
> frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
> 10Ks regularly without having shin pain. I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
> tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)
>
> I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running. I started to
> think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
> solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
> shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I
> should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
> barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.
> I notice that when I run barefoot (lightly jog in my house), I always
> land on the balls of my feet. When I run with good running shoes, I
> find running like that hard to do and I tend to heel-toe it a bit.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this? Will trying barefoot running
> help correct technical issues with my running and actually help this
> problem? I really look forward to hearing any insight people have on
> this issue (barefoot-style running and chronic injuries).

From a revised post of mine from around 2001:

From: Gontang <gontang@electriciti.com >
Subject: Run Softly Over Hard Surfaces & Train on Uneven Terrain Rev 0901
Cc:
Bcc:
X-Attachments:

Summary
Run Softly Over Hard Surfaces & Train on Uneven Terrain

In running the problem is not the hard ground but the force at which one
lands on the hard ground. In running the problem of sprained ankles is
due
to the overuse syndrome of running on flat surfaces. The Flat Surface
Overuse Syndrome (FSOS pronounced F-Sauce) is a major cause of sprained
ankles. The muscles of the ankle are made to adapt to unevensurfaces and
need
to be trained accordingly.

Run Softly Over Hard Surfaces & Train on Uneven Terrain
c. 2000, 2001 Austin "Ozzie" Gontang, Ph.D. & Conal Guan-Yow

Conal Guan-Yow Ho <conalho@cats.ucsc.edu > wrote:

> If you have to pick either, the street is the one to run on because the
> pavement is typically made of concrete which is a very unforgiving surface.
> Roads are typically made of asphalt and they're more forgiving. In addition,
> you're constantly climbing up and down sidewalks because they're not
> continuous. Your wife is doing the right thing (i.e., if she has to pick
> either one). Most running sources don't recommend running on the
> pavement because it's too hard. C

I think I disagree. Let me take you down to where I'm going to. If you
are
running on concrete, pavement or the compacted sand on the beach, none of
them give. So in my mind's eye all three are all unforgiving surfaces.

I recommend running on pavement be it concrete or asphalt with proper
running form and style. You land lightly because you only land on the
surface of the hard surface. Your center of gravity doesn't follow into
that
point of contact but is already moving on from the planted foot.

The issue for me isn't the hardness of the surface, street or sidewalk.
The
problem is the vertically vectored force at which my foot hits or touches
down. That impact, hard or soft, depends on the vertical movement of my
center of gravity and where its impact point is on the surface of the
"hard"
surface.

If I land only on the surface of the hard surface by counterbalancing the
impact of the planting foot with the upward lifting of the opposite knee
and
the same sided elbow swinging forward and up, my center of gravity
impacts
the ground very lightly. I have counterbalanced it.

Experiment:

Place several paper or Styrofoam cups on the ground upside down.

a. Jump up and come down with one of the cups under the planting foot and
pop the cup. You should feel the jar as rest of your center of gravity
comes
down on the planted foot.

b. Lift one knee so that the foot is above another unpopped cup. As you
allow the foot over the cup to come down smashing and popping the cup

i. Lift up the planted foot as quickly as you are stomping down on the
cup.

ii. Allow your foot stomping cup popping foot to land only on the
surface of
the hard surface. That is achieved by counterbalancing the stomping foot
with the planted foot lifting it equally and opposite to the stomping
foot.

This is how a martial can break a brick through a piece of paper without
tearing or ripping the paper.
His/her fist stops at the paper touching the brick but the energy goes
through it. The power transmitted to the brick shatters it but the paper
remains untorn.

However if I lift my body up vertically and come down on the planting
foot,
I can get 2 or more times gravity impacting at the point of foot contact.

If you've watched a cat jump up to a ledge, there's no clump or hard
landing
since it cushions the landing. You or I can run up a set of steps
clomping
each step or quietly on cat like feet.

However, the reason I run on soft surfaces like grass or dirt surfaces
like
Strawberry Fields is not because the surfaces are soft. I run on soft
surfaces because they are uneven and allow the muscles controling the
foot
and ankle to move through the full range of motion they was created to
move
through.

So that's what it's all about. It is my view that running on hard flat
surfaces creates an overuse syndrome where the foot/ankle is never
allowed
to do the adapting it was created to do after a million years or more of
adapting to moving over uneven surfaces. People strain their ankles not
because the surfaces are uneven. Rather they sprain their ankles because
the
muscles of the foot overused by continuous running on flat surfaces don't
know how to adapt to the uneven surfaces.

Also the reason many people sprain their ankles severely is because they
are
used to overstriding in addition to the "Flat Surface Overuse Syndrome."
(Remember where you first saw this term. Shortened to FSOS or pronounced
F-Sauce) So when they come down on the foot, the whole weight of the body
comes crashing down on the bent or bending everted ankle...and the
muscles
on the outside of the foot (peroneus) are not able to take the
overstretch
and give allowing for the ligaments of the ankle to be strained or torn.

If I'm not overstriding when my ankle everts, my center of gravity has
already passed over the spraining foot and the spraining foot doesn't
take
the full impact of the body's weight. This saves the ligaments and
tendons
from bearing the full brunt of the body on the tendons and ligaments.

So remember, Nothing is real. It's a word. So there's nothing to get hung
about. Just practice running lightly on uneven surfaces as if you could
run
over Strawberry Fields. Forever.

In health and on the run,

Ozzie Gontang
gontang@electriciti.com
Maintainer - rec.running FAQ
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/by-newsgroup/rec/rec.running.html
Director, San Diego Marathon Clinic, est. 1975

Mindful Running http://www.mindfulness.com/mr.html

Date: 17 Aug 2006 21:28:02
From: Ozzie Gontang
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

Date: 18 Aug 2006 09:34:05
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

I did look online at the Mizuno Wave Precision and it says it is for
competitive runners with high/rigid arches. I definitely have flexible
arches.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 21:38:38
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-18, George <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:
> I did look online at the Mizuno Wave Precision and it says it is for
> competitive runners with high/rigid arches. I definitely have flexible
> arches.

All neutral shoes are supposedly for "high/rigid arches".

The conventional assumption is that if you have flexible arches, you need
a stiff shoe to compensate for your flexible feet. But you tried that, and
it didn't work so well, right ? My opinion -- if you're not a pronator, then
you don't need a posted shoe even if you have flexible arches.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 18 Aug 2006 09:28:57
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

Donovan and Charlie .... That is also some great feedback ... going
from where I am now to the Frees does not make sense. I am looking at
the Mizuno Wave Precision and that seems like a logical place to start
and ramp up slowly as though starting from the beginning. I think
knowing that I will always be susceptible to this probelm is just
something I have to accept but I cna hopefully avoid it or keep it at a
minimum. I am going to give it a try and get some of those shoes today
and start with tomorrow morning's run.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 09:03:55
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

Dan and John, Thank you for your insight. Dan, I put up another reply
message that answered your questions on my training and weight and such
(6'0", 190lb). At this very moment, I have no shin splint pain. As
soon as I feel any pain, I let it heal (I don't really feel the effects
until after the run).

I do notice that when I run in Beasts, I tend to do more of a
heel-first strike. If I run barefoot (I have only tried on the floor
in my house), I ALWAYS strike the balls of my feet/toes first. I ran
2.5 miles yesterday in some Asics that have some motion control but
nothing like the Beasts. I tried very hard to land toe-first. I could
do it but it was tough in those shoes. That is why I am speculating
that a minimalist shoe might teach me to correct my form to land
toe-first. I am just speculating and that is what drove me to create
this thread. I know that shin splints are a common problem and there
is a lot of info out there ... but I was looking at barefoot running as
a possible remedy. I may be way off.

I also notice my stride changes drastically with speed. If I really
back off my pace and up my distance I should see if that 4-mile
breaking point is there. Usually by the time I get my workouts up to
4-miles or more per run I am running a 9-min mile pace or better. I
think I need more patience maybe.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 21:30:09
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-18, George <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:
> Dan and John, Thank you for your insight. Dan, I put up another reply
> message that answered your questions on my training and weight and such
> (6'0", 190lb). At this very moment, I have no shin splint pain. As

That's kind of heavy. At that weight, you just need to be more careful. If
you can lose some weight, your risk of injury drops substantially. Speaking
as someone who has tried running at 200lb (I had to quit because I kept
getting injured) and later at ~170lb (got up to 80mpw and down to 150lb)

> I do notice that when I run in Beasts, I tend to do more of a
> heel-first strike. If I run barefoot (I have only tried on the floor

You're worrying way too much about what touches down first. It doesn't matter
nearly as much as you think it does. When the heel touches first, you're not
really *landing* on your heel, because your center of mass keeps dropping until
the ball of your foot makes contact. So there is not some huge dichotomy
between "heel-strike" and "ball-strike".

However, I would recommend you count the number of footfalls a minute. Most
experienced runners take about 180 strides a minute. If you're taking way
less than that (common among beginning runners), that is going to cause more
problems than anything else. If you do take 180 strides a minute, your heel
and toe will touch down at almost exactly the same time, it should be like a
photo finish between the two.

> in my house), I ALWAYS strike the balls of my feet/toes first. I ran
> 2.5 miles yesterday in some Asics that have some motion control but
> nothing like the Beasts. I tried very hard to land toe-first. I could

Don't try so hard. Trying too hard will get you injured.

> do it but it was tough in those shoes. That is why I am speculating
> that a minimalist shoe might teach me to correct my form to land
> toe-first. I am just speculating and that is what drove me to create
> this thread. I know that shin splints are a common problem and there
> is a lot of info out there ... but I was looking at barefoot running as
> a possible remedy. I may be way off.

Let's just say that the barefoot running crowd are some way out of the
mainstream.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 18 Aug 2006 08:48:17
From: Charlie Pendejo
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

George wrote:
> I tried the Frees first and just thought "no way" because it
> seemed so thin. I am just wondering if anyone runs in them
> (or shoes like them) and what their experience has been.

Yeah George, I run in the Free, among other shoes.

I haven't suffered from shin problems since my first few months of
running - Ozzie's "don't claw with your toes" seems to have been all I
needed - so my experience may not be terribly relevent to you.

But I will say, I *like* the shoe quite a bit. It's quite light, got
as comfy an upper as you'll find this side of sandals, and obviously
flexible as all get-out.

IMO any hype about the Free being so revolutionarily different from any
other shoe is a bit much, though. The first time I tried them, I was
running to my local park in (the 2004 edition of) Nike's Waffle Racer,
a very light, flexible, minimal shoe. Couple guys were set up just
outside the park demo-ing the Free. After instructing me that Nike
never intended that anyone should actually *run* in the Waffle Racer
(yawn) they let me try a 3 mile loop in the Free. Having run in both
within minutes of each other, I can definitively report that the Free
feels quite a bit like the Waffle Racer (and probably the H Street and
other such) but with a hell of a lot more cushion. Which I've come to
think of as a good thing when one's weekly mileage includes so much
pavement... I'd be more inclined to wear the barely-there Waffles were
it not for the 1.6 miles of road between home and park trail.

And subsequently I've stumbled onto (and stumbled in!) another close
relative of the Free - Fila's Corsa Sette, a light racing shoe, has a
more traditional upper (there's a normal stiff heel counter, and a
standard mesh fabric albeit pretty darn free-form with just the one
overlay) but a more radical geometry (only 9mm in the heel-to-forefoot
drop, vs. Free which is closer to a standard high-heeled trainer, to
the disparagement of some hardcore minimalists). Anyhow, it's also
very very flexible and feels pretty similar to run in, though the
cushioning is maybe a little softer.

Pardon the digression - little of this is relevent to your question but
I haven't written (much) about these shoes before.

> Should I be trying to concentrate on a toe-heel landging vs.
> flatfoot or heel-toe? Here is an article that I read that at least
> made me wonder if some barefoot running might help correct
> running form issues ... http://sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm

Pretty early on I consciously worked on my landing and became more of a
midfoot striker. I think it's worked well for me but would caution
that a lot of people with a lot more experience than I - really,
probably the voice of the mainstream - warn against trying to change
form (much, beyond maybe correcting really big obvious flaws). Of
course, some with lots of experience do support trying to
change/improve.

Also be aware that choice of shoe will have a large impact on changing
form. When I was trying to move from heel strike to midfoot, I was
running in a horrible, heavy, inflexible, enormously cushioned Saucony
called Grid Web 3D. Somewhere along the way I picked up a pretty
flexible moderately stable lightweight trainer, Nike's Air Span, and
wow was it ever easier to land mid-foot-ish in those. Subsequently
found it even easier in lighter shoes with lower heels, but eventually
it became habit enough that I'd still land similarly in anything
including those Grid Web.

Barefoot running improving form? Haven't done much but it makes a lot
of sense to me. Lacking much access to places I'd feel safe running
unshod, I've done the next best thing and run plenty of miles in "less
shoe". It helps tremendously if you can run on something softer than
pavement - dirt, gravel, grass, wooden boardwalk... depending on your
weight and your stride, you can likely get by with a lot less shoe (or
of course barefoot) on a softer surface than on pavement.

Of course if you're not already, attend to a couple simpler things
which also inform form:
- stride rate: aim for 180/min or at least close
- posture: "run tall", don't bend at the waist
- sound: quiet steps = good

> Regardless, I am going to try more neutral shoes and start slowly
> (stay off the Beasts for a while and put the orthotics away).

Whatever you do, be careful and consider moving gradually. Going from
all of your runs in Beast + orthotics to all of them in a neutral or
somewhat stable shoe might be quite a stress, even if ultimately that
neutral shoe is the right one for your feet.

Similarly, don't change everything at once. You're talking about at a
lot of things: shoes, orthotics, running form & footstrike, barefoot...
the safest option is probably gradual change, concentrating on one
factor at a time. (Devil's advocate: I think but not sure that Romanov
may ask you to change everything when you learn his Pose running
method. But if so, he also surely expects you to cut WAY back on
volume during this adjustment period.)

Date: 18 Aug 2006 21:22:55
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-18, Charlie Pendejo <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote:

> other such) but with a hell of a lot more cushion. Which I've come to
> think of as a good thing when one's weekly mileage includes so much
> pavement... I'd be more inclined to wear the barely-there Waffles were
> it not for the 1.6 miles of road between home and park trail.

The waffles are even less cushioned than the Streak XC (the light 5oz shoe)
though they are not as light. I find the Waffles are OK on dirt, but on pavement
the cushioning (or lack thereof) inadequate.

That shouldn't be at all surprising -- after all, the shoe is designed to be
worn primarily on dirt (and then secondarily on indoor tracks), hence the more
rugged outsole (which is why it's heavier than better cushioned shoes) and
complete absence of any cushioning.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 18 Aug 2006 15:37:14
From: Dan Stumpus
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

"George" <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote

>I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
> articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
> shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
> stretching etc.

How much do you weigh, and how fast do you run, and what is a typical
training week for you? Force increases greatly as you run faster.

Can you give a specific example (day by day) of how you have attempted to
ramp up mileage over a few weeks, along with pace.

Do you land heavily on your heels? The muscles on the outer front of your
lower leg (peroneus longus and brevis) get overworked if you land on your
heels (they keep the foot from flopping down -- they're forefoot
decelerators). If you can land more mid-foot, there will be less force
pulling on the tendons attaching those muscles to your tibia (and therefore
less chance of small tears and pull-offs of bone).

Have you tried running only on soft surfaces (track, or dirt?)

> I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
> (I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
> frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
> 10Ks regularly without having shin pain.

Here's what I do for persistent injuries:

Train (if you can) just below where it starts to hurt. If it hurts, stop
and walk it in. And ice the area daily, even on non-run days. If all you
can do is 1/4 mile jogs at a very slow pace, then start with that. I'm not
so proud that I won't slow it down to 10 minute miles or less if that's what
it takes to avoid pain. I'd rather do a slow jog than nothing at all...

If you can combine moderation (avoiding all pain), with treatment (ice
especially, but alternating with heat if you like), I predict you can lick
this, but it may take months, especially if you've attempted to run through
it for years. (doing so may have created a more chronic and slower healing
injury).

The keys (to reiterate) are (1) avoiding pain and (2) consistent treatment.

> I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
> tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)

It is possible that the combination of heel striking and an excessively high
heel relative to the forefoot cause too much stress on those muscles,
aggrevating the problem.

> I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running. I started to
> think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
> solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
> shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I
> should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
> barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.

I don't think it's foot strength per se, but stress on those forefoot
decelerator muscles that's the issue. A more natural shoe will have a lower
heel lift and make it easier to do a midfoot strike.

I had shin splints when starting to run, mostly because I ran too fast on
unconditioned legs (I used to be a heel striker). Since I am mainly a
forefoot striker, I haven't had the problem in a jillion years.

Good luck.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 07:46:21
From: runsrealfast
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

George wrote:
> I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch

I know everyone is different but I have not had good experiences with
the Beasts in the past, and have never worn them again. With shin
splints, I experience what you are talking about when I make a change
in my training. One of my problems is that I change my stride with
spead, I think the change causes the shin splints. After a couple of
weeks of just icing and dealing with the pain it goes away. My theory
is that I am "getting my shins in shape. I usually experience this pain
when I go from winter base training to an increase in speed work.

JOhn

Date: 18 Aug 2006 07:17:05
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

I appreciate the feedback. Ozzie, I have read your folklore many times
before and it has been very helpful ... especially the part on
self-massage to work out tightness in the muscles.

As for some of the other comments, I sense that you think I have not
spent a lot of time testing this issue. I can explain some more. I
have been fitted at a running shoe place (RunTex here in Austin)
several times. I always go in there with what I know, they watch me
run and give some advice. I never get the same answer. I have tried
over a dozen pairs of shoes. The Brooks Beasts are my most recent
choice. I started Orthotics about a year ago because after all of the
different shoes I have tried, I read articles suggesting orthotics as a
means of reducing shin splints.

About 8 months ago I set up an appointment with Paul Carroza here in
Austin. He owns RunTex and is the Footwear Editor for Runners World
Magazine. I contacted him on a whim because he had a really nice
article on understanding chronic injuries and I asked some questions
and he invited me for an appointment. He watched me run and brought
out three shoes. Two had motion control (one Saucony and the Brooks
Adrenaline) and one was the Nike Free. I tried the Frees first and
just thought "no way" because it seemed so thin. I am just wondering
if anyone runs in them (or shoes like them) and what their experience
has been. I would be particularly interested if they have suffered
from shin splints before. Should I be trying to concentrate on a
toe-heel landging vs. flatfoot or heel-toe? Here is an article that I
read that at least made me wonder if some barefoot running might help
correct running form issues ...
http://sportsci.org/jour/0103/mw.htm

I do not pronate much according to people who have watched me ... and
the wear pattern on my running shoes suggests minimal pronation. I
have a slightly high arch in my feet but not too high and a good amount
of flexure in my foot (about a quarter-inch flex between no weight and
full-weight applied).

Regardless, I am going to try more neutral shoes and start slowly (stay
off the Beasts for a while and put the orthotics away). My current
running routine is 3 or 3.5 mile runs at a 9min to 10m pace depending
on the workout -- 3 times a week --- on a granite trail first thing in
the morning. Usually, when I get in the 4 mile and higher range in a
single workout, I start having trouble. Currently, I have no shin
pain. When I compete in 10Ks (road), I have run them in the 8min mile
range so that is where I want to be (and start getting closer to
7.5min). I just keep getting hampered. On off days I do non-impact
cardio (usually elliptical) for a total of 6 days a week cardio
including the running. I also lift weights 3 days a week. When I
start a training program, I start with 2 mile, slow-jogs a couple times
a week and go up gradually (never more than 10% total mileage in a
week).

Again, thank you for your time and concern.

Date: 18 Aug 2006 15:44:30
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-18, George <georgehardisty@gmail.com > wrote:
[snip]
> I do not pronate much according to people who have watched me ... and
> the wear pattern on my running shoes suggests minimal pronation. I
> have a slightly high arch in my feet but not too high and a good amount
> of flexure in my foot (about a quarter-inch flex between no weight and
> full-weight applied).

I would say avoid posted shoes if you're not pronating. I can see why you've
been recommended MC shoes, but it's a mistake IMO.

> Regardless, I am going to try more neutral shoes and start slowly (stay
> off the Beasts for a while and put the orthotics away). My current

I'd say go with shoes that are both neutral *and* lighter. So for example, don't
get the Asics Nimbus, Mizuno Creation, etc. But I wouldn't start with the
free. Start with a lightweight trainer (Mizuno Precision, or Brooks Burn if you
want to stay with Brooks)

I think jumping into something like the free too quickly could make problems
worse though -- you could end up with achilles tendon problems, or shin splints
again, etc.

Your running routine seems OK. To some extent, you will probably need to be
more careful than everyone else -- soft tissue injuries have a way of repeating
themselves, so regardless of how smart you train, you will be relatively
vulnerable to shin splints.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 18 Aug 2006 14:35:09
From: Charlie Pendejo
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

Donovan wrote:
> The waffles are even less cushioned than the Streak XC (the light
> 5oz shoe) though they are not as light. I find the Waffles are OK on
> dirt, but on pavement the cushioning (or lack thereof) inadequate.

I've - finally - got a pair of Streak XC on the way from Eastbay. (I'd
like to have bought them locally, but where? Neither of Brooklyn's two
semi-serious running shops I know carries them [or any flats at all for
that matter, argh], nor Urban Athletics, nor even Paragon per their
website...) Hopefully they'll remind me a lot of the late lamented
Ekidens.

For a while I thought the Waffles suitable even on pavement. I ran the
2004 Boilermaker in them. But that caught up to me after a while in
the form of a forefoot callous which made further pavement running in
them uncomfortable. Until I figured out that filing the callous took
care of the discomfort.

What are you wearing for Chicago? On your feet that is?

Date: 19 Aug 2006 19:58:56
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-18, Charlie Pendejo <Charlie.Pendejo@gmail.com > wrote:

> What are you wearing for Chicago? On your feet that is?

Don't know. I tried the T4, and the cushioning was great but it caused some problems
with my toenails. I am seriously considering the XC. Either that or I pick a slightly
bulkier version and go with the marathoner (looks like the same last and upper, but
bulkier midsole/outsole)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 19 Aug 2006 12:14:54
From: Parker Race
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

George wrote:
> I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints. I have read numerous
> articles on the topic, seen a dor, purchased orthotics, babied my
> shins with ice/heat/massage, never run on concrete, extensive
> stretching etc. I am in good shape but as I try to ramp up my running
> (I ramp up very slowly), I always fall prey to shin splints. It is
> frustrating because I enjoy running and want to be able to compete in
> 10Ks regularly without having shin pain. I currently run in Brooks
> Beasts with custom orthotics with a very firm arch (although I have
> tried many cushioning and motion-control shoes)
>
> I read an article in Men's Health about barefoot running. I started to
> think that *maybe* I have been spending the last 11 years trying to
> solve this problem with high stability shoes and special insoles and
> shin wraps and that maybe I was going with the wrong approach. Maybe I
> should work to run in something like Nike Frees or some other
> barefoot-like shoe that will help me build up the strength in my foot.
> I notice that when I run barefoot (lightly jog in my house), I always
> land on the balls of my feet. When I run with good running shoes, I
> find running like that hard to do and I tend to heel-toe it a bit.
>
> Does anyone have experience with this? Will trying barefoot running
> help correct technical issues with my running and actually help this
> problem? I really look forward to hearing any insight people have on
> this issue (barefoot-style running and chronic injuries).
>

I think you need get to the point where you can run with normal running
shoes without sustaining an injury before you think about
trying to run barefoot or with minimalist shoes.

As far as the Beasts I tried them and found them to be low cut hiking
boots. If you're wearing custom orthotics I think they are overkill.

The one thing I didn't see mentioned was doing any kind of strengthening
exercises for the shins. I've you haven't included that in your
treatment, I'd say it's time to consider it.

Links:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0608.htm
http://www.watfxc.com/TF/TF%20Education/shin_splints.htm

___
PR

Date: 20 Aug 2006 03:49:30
From: Dot
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

Parker Race wrote:
> George wrote:
>
>> I am a long-time sufferer of shin splints.
>
> The one thing I didn't see mentioned was doing any kind of strengthening
> exercises for the shins. I've you haven't included that in your
> treatment, I'd say it's time to consider it.
>
> Links:
>
> http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0608.htm
> http://www.watfxc.com/TF/TF%20Education/shin_splints.htm
>

I agree. I've found some barefoot drills can help with strengthening
feet, but I think some well-directed strength and flexibility exercises
like you point out will help more directly. I do some of them in bare
feet, like the toe raises and heel walking.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Date: 19 Aug 2006 07:02:06
From:
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

> Let's just say that the barefoot running crowd are some way out of the
> mainstream.
_

this whole thread is hilarious w/the OP contemplating the notion of
going from Beast with Orthotics to a Minimalist shoe.....all for what
reason?...to ball/toe strike? ha! this will not be a successful
transition and the OP should not be so ambitious.

to the OP, the shoe for you is the Asics Evolution. On barefoot
running....saw a guy out today racing in an event w/Donnie , racing for
WSX, running barefoot. Folks, this was 5 mile road running in Central
Park and the guy was barefoot, very fast too, he finsihed about a
minute or so ahead of Donovan. This is perhaps the 3rd time I've seen
a barefoot road runner. They all have chips rubberbanded to their
ankles.

funny thing is after he crosses the finishing line he proceeds to put
on his mizuno flats to walk in. something about that seemed
incongruent. and donnie...looked like you were in some heavy traffic
at around that 1 mile mark.....and approaching the finish and speaking
of shoes.....i got a good look at your XCs. aren't they do for
retirement? lol.

Date: 19 Aug 2006 19:57:23
From: Donovan Rebbechi
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

On 2006-08-19, lanceandrew@aol.com <lanceandrew@aol.com > wrote:

> funny thing is after he crosses the finishing line he proceeds to put
> on his mizuno flats to walk in. something about that seemed
> incongruent. and donnie...looked like you were in some heavy traffic
> at around that 1 mile mark.....and approaching the finish and speaking
> of shoes.....i got a good look at your XCs. aren't they do for
> retirement? lol.

They're a bit dirty. I sort of replaced them with the Brooks T4, but
the T4 caused some problems with my toenails, so I'm back in the XC for
now.

Generally, the XC is pretty much usable until the upper falls apart (the
upper is very flimsy, so it breaks before the outsole wears thin). You don't
notice midsole breakdown as much as you do with a trainer.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Date: 21 Aug 2006 07:10:38
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

> I agree. I've found some barefoot drills can help with strengthening
> feet, but I think some well-directed strength and flexibility exercises
> like you point out will help more directly. I do some of them in bare
> feet, like the toe raises and heel walking.

I am concentrating more on strengthening this area. Thank you for the
links.

I tested a bunch of neutral shoes on Friday and I went with the Asics
Cumulus VIII. It is a very comfortable shoe. I walked in them all
weekend to break them in and then did a short 2.5 mile jog in them this
morning on the usual gravel trail.

I measured my paces per minute and it was a lot slower than 180. It
was in the 140-145 range. This is something I need to look at
improving. I am also in the process of dropping weight. I am down 10
pounds over the last 2.5 months and want to run in the 175 pound range.

I am glad I started this thread because I was so frustrated that I was
willing to go from one extreme to the other and from the responses I
realized that was silly. Thanks for the help.

Date: 21 Aug 2006 18:20:22
From: Dot
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

George wrote:
>
> I measured my paces per minute and it was a lot slower than 180. It
> was in the 140-145 range. This is something I need to look at
> improving.

Shortening your strides will help quicken them.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Date: 22 Aug 2006 06:43:17
From: George
Subject: Re: Can Barefoot Running Help Shin Splints?

> Shortening your strides will help quicken them.
>
> Dot

Thanks, Dot, I will try on my next run. Thanks.